Politicizing the AZ massacre

Dude ... seriously ... POTM It is so easy when something like this happens to get lost in all the noise of the variety of TV opinions but this point that you have made aught to hit home with people. It boils down to why we should care about corporate politicking, and why as you say we should hold our leaders, or "idols" in the case of Palin, accountable for the words they say.Nobody is saying they shouldn't be allowed to say the things that they do, but we are a failure as a society when we continue to glorify Palin, Angle, Tancredo, etc for their absolutely irresponsible speech. They should be regarded the same as Phelps and his hate mongers. Just because these people dress a little nicer and have a vocabulary slightly higher than a 1st grader does not mean that what they say is any worse than that asshat. Worse, they have the support of a major political party in the USA.Call this tragedy what you will, but to say that this was merely the act of a lunatic is just as irresponsible as the "leadership" of our politicians.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

That is a terrible analogy!Jenny McCarthy is making a specific testable claim. The claim has been tested and shown to be false. Jenny McCarthy then continues to LIE and fear monger about that claim.Correlation does sometimes imply causation and simply crying foul is not a rebuttal. It is a fallacy. Your criticism universally applied would invalidate solid science such as epidemiology.Crashfrog was not making a claim anything like the straw man you erected. That mass media and marketing have measureable effects on society at large is solid science and is the very reason that corporations and politicians pour massive amounts of money into advertising. Our entire political discourse is dominated by mass marketing precisely because it works.Nobody, who’s opinion is in worth a damn, is saying that Sarah Palin’s rhetoric specifically caused the massacre. That would be the equivalent of your Jenny McCarthy analogy. That does not mean it is illogical to claim that the speech of these people is dangerous, irresponsible, and having a negative effect on society.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Yes you absolutely did. I was heralding crashfrog on his elucidation of the mass media argument and you directly equated that with logical fallacies of the anti-vaccine movement.Did you not do that? Did you mean something else? What I hear crash saying and what I agree with him on is that the kind of evidence for the kind of causation being suggested is a complete misrepresentation of the claims being made by those who say the rhetoric had something to do with this.What it seems like you are saying we need is evidence like a letter from Laughner to Palin saying, "I'll get on this list right away Sarah starting with Giffords here in Arizona. XOXOX -Jared" in order to prove that Laughner was motivated by Palin. But nobody is making that specific claim!What I see happening in this thread is a repeated failure to understand the point that crashfrog is trying to make despite what I feel are very lucid arguments being put forward by him.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Well, then perhaps you should choose your analogies more carefully. If anyone needs a picture with crosshairs on it it would be Jenny McCarthy. Let me be more specific. I don't think anybody is making the claim that it was out of the mouth of Palin straight into the actions of Laughner. But that is not necessary to show that the rhetoric is associated with his actions. It is perhaps straining at gnats but I think crash is rightly claiming more than that. I think maybe you are going too far in claiming that he has shifted because it seems very much that you have too. One of your first replies: seems to imply that you are dismissive of any link. So crash has generalized and you have narrowed in. Maybe you can just attribute that to the debate refining both of your positions. Well, I mean you certainly don't make friends on a board full of skeptically minded people by calling them Jenny McCarthy. I understand your position, but I think you are still asking for evidence disproportionate to the claims.Soldier on.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson