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Author Topic:   Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 52 of 373 (595032)
12-06-2010 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by barbara
12-06-2010 10:43 AM


Re: It's All Relative
barbara writes:
I then got a cat and one night she starting to hiss and growl at the closet for no reason that I could see. After that I never felt that ghost energy again.
You can call this whatever you want but to this day I wonder what that was really all about that took place.
Cat: a ghost's only natural predator.
Carbon monoxide poisoning or your cat scared away a ghost: you choose.

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 Message 51 by barbara, posted 12-06-2010 10:43 AM barbara has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 92 of 373 (595541)
12-09-2010 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
12-01-2010 3:32 PM


Straggler writes:
Do animals exhibit belief in supernatural beings?
This question has been bobbing around at the back of my mind for a couple of days.
(I originally wrote a longer post - but I think it obscured and not clarified.)
Are chimps similar enough to 'early' humans that they develop supernatural beliefs in a similar way?
If so:
Their god would be created because of something that they don't understand by a pattern dependant brain finding patterns where there are none.
Their god would be modelled using a chimpocentric point of view.
They would be trying to appease and/or communicate with their god.
This would appear to be irrational to anyone else viewing this behaviour.
Do we have any evidence of chimps (as a group) behaving irrationally?
Do we have any evidence of chimps behaving as if there was an invisible chimp?
(These questions are equally relevent to any animal.)
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 12-01-2010 3:32 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Straggler, posted 12-10-2010 4:47 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 108 of 373 (595858)
12-10-2010 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Straggler
12-10-2010 4:47 PM


Straggler writes:
Can we look at these examples and justifiably speculate that there is evidence of animals beliefs of the sort humans have repeatedly demonstrated?
I read the elephant link (the ape link is broken).
There doesn't appear to be any obviously irrational behaviour described relating to elephants.
(Standing around a dead elephant could be interpretted as a lack of understanding that the death is permanent.)
I've started searching the interwebs, and so far I have only found a reference to possible irrational choices made by animals.
I will dig further...

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Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 12-10-2010 6:15 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 110 of 373 (595863)
12-10-2010 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by jar
12-10-2010 6:15 PM


jar writes:
And it could also indicate an almost unlimited number of things all unrelated to the supernatural.
What 'it' are you referring to?
(This is not one of those 'Jon' questions where I end up asking you to define every word in your sentence.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by jar, posted 12-10-2010 6:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 12-10-2010 7:33 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 113 of 373 (595902)
12-11-2010 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
12-10-2010 7:33 PM


Re: speculation ...?
jar writes:
Even with the species we know best, speculation related to a belief in the supernatural is often a real stretch. For example even finding items buried with people does not really support a belief in the supernatural. It can be explained by many other factors.
I agree that the stated elephant behaviours are open to multiple interpretation.
My suggestion (speculation) is that if they were behaving in a religious manner, then it would appear inexplicable/irrational to us (unless we involve religion).
If we saw a chimpanzee kneeling with their hands pressed together and making quiet noises, would we be able to explain that behaviour without mentioning religion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 12-10-2010 7:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 8:51 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 115 of 373 (595914)
12-11-2010 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
12-11-2010 8:51 AM


Re: speculation ...?
jar writes:
Panda writes:
If we saw a chimpanzee kneeling with their hands pressed together and making quiet noises, would we be able to explain that behaviour without mentioning religion?
We can explain what they are doing, but not what they are thinking.
Ok, a hypothetical situation:
If we saw wild chimpanzees kneeling with their hands pressed together and making quiet noises: what would be the explanation (without mentioning religion)?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 8:51 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 9:16 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 117 of 373 (595918)
12-11-2010 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by jar
12-11-2010 9:16 AM


Re: speculation ...?
jar writes:
That they are kneeling with their hands pressed together and making quiet noises; we can't go much further than that. We can look at their next acts and see if that tells us more but that's about it.
(I think I misunderstood your previous point.)
So, you agree that we could identify if animals were behaving irrationally (as opposed to 'hunting', etc.).
Ok: the other part of my 'hypothesis' was that their gods would be Chimpocentric - their gods would be based on themselves.
So my 'speculation' would mean that we should see chimps behaving in a manner as if there was an unseen chimp.
e.g. Leaving favourite chimp food in a tree which no chimp eats.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 9:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 9:40 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 119 of 373 (595920)
12-11-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
12-11-2010 9:40 AM


Re: speculation ...?
jar writes:
Panda writes:
So my 'speculation' would mean that we should see chimps behaving in a manner as if there was an unseen chimp.
e.g. Leaving favourite chimp food in a tree which no chimp eats.
Again, I would not go as far as to say why they did that or that it implies any particular belief system.
So, what reason could be given for chimps putting good food in a tree and then not eating it (maybe even then going off and eating food)?
You seem to be arguing that we cannot identify what animals are doing unless we can talk to them - which is patently untrue.
Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifyable?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 9:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 9:56 AM Panda has replied
 Message 121 by Jon, posted 12-11-2010 10:10 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 122 of 373 (595923)
12-11-2010 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
12-11-2010 9:56 AM


Re: speculation ...?
jar writes:
There are atheistic pastors and people that follow all the rituals and still not believe. Sometimes (pretty often) their motivation is family peace, what someone else believes, comradeship or social networking, the food, fear or custom.
'Pretend' religious behaviour is still religious behaviour - and the reasons people fake religious behaviour is because of existing religious beliefs and behaviour (in themselves or others).
You cannot (sincerely or otherwise) behave religiously unless religion exists - by definition.
Edited by Panda, : clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 9:56 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 10:38 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 123 of 373 (595924)
12-11-2010 10:28 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Jon
12-11-2010 10:10 AM


Re: speculation ...?
Jon writes:
It is very easy to identify what they are doing: watch them. The problem comes with trying to link the behavior to thoughts that might be considered 'beliefs in the supernatural'; we simply have no basis for making such a link when it comes to animals.
Panda writes:
Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifyable?

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 Message 121 by Jon, posted 12-11-2010 10:10 AM Jon has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 125 of 373 (595928)
12-11-2010 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
12-11-2010 10:38 AM


Re: speculation ...?
jar writes:
But it is not belief. The topic is "Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?"
But we were discussing "Do animals behave religiously".
We have been discussing this for a while.
I am left wondering why you (only now) consider it off-topic.
jar writes:
In addition even there all you are doing is ascribing YOUR beliefs to other critters. They could have entirely different beliefs yet exhibit the same behaviors.
I am not trying to ascribe my beliefs: I am trying to interpret animal behaviour.
Identification of animal behaviour is done all the time by people all over the world.
So why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 10:38 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 11:16 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 127 of 373 (595934)
12-11-2010 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by jar
12-11-2010 11:16 AM


Re: speculation ...?
So why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable?
jar writes:
I explained that above.
Yes, and I showed you why you were wrong and you replied that I was off-topic.
Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable?
jar writes:
How is religious behavior different than the behavior of soccer fans?
And how is mating behaviour different to group behaviour?
But we happily talk about mating behaviour and group behaviour.
Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable?
jar writes:
I do not think that without the knowledge gained by communication with other humans we could identify religious behavior.
...but we can identify all other kinds of behaviour without the knowledge gained by communication.
Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 11:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Jon, posted 12-11-2010 11:51 AM Panda has not replied
 Message 129 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 11:53 AM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 130 of 373 (595939)
12-11-2010 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by jar
12-11-2010 11:53 AM


Re: speculation ...?
jar writes:
We identify clothing, paintings, buildings, gatherings, song, dance, most every activity based on the knowledge gained by communicating with other humans.
None of that is possible yet with other species.
And yet we have identified animals doing all of those things.
(I would provide links, but google is full of them. Just type "animal dance", "animal buildings", etc.)
Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 11:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 12:29 PM Panda has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 132 of 373 (595946)
12-11-2010 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
12-11-2010 12:29 PM


Re: speculation ...?
How do we discriminate between dance for fun and religious dance, a church from a stadium or theater, hands raised in religious praise from fans doing the wave?
So: how do we determine religious behaviour (from other behaviour)...?
...and we are back to the start. Message 92
Panda writes:
Do we have any evidence of chimps (as a group) behaving irrationally?
Do we have any evidence of chimps behaving as if there was an invisible chimp?
Well, that was fun, but I CBA to go 'round again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 12-11-2010 12:29 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3743 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 171 of 373 (600912)
01-17-2011 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by onifre
01-17-2011 6:27 PM


Re: On belief in supernatural beings in animals
onifre writes:
Wouldn't your first instict be to think that they are simply copying what humans do?
Yup.
And it would be easy enough to test for:
Are there any humans in the area doing what the chimps are doing?
If no, "could we reasonably infer religious behaviours and associated sorts of beliefs on the basis of comparison with humans?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by onifre, posted 01-17-2011 6:27 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by onifre, posted 01-17-2011 7:01 PM Panda has replied

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