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Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
barbara writes:
Cat: a ghost's only natural predator.
I then got a cat and one night she starting to hiss and growl at the closet for no reason that I could see. After that I never felt that ghost energy again. You can call this whatever you want but to this day I wonder what that was really all about that took place. Carbon monoxide poisoning or your cat scared away a ghost: you choose.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Straggler writes:
This question has been bobbing around at the back of my mind for a couple of days. Do animals exhibit belief in supernatural beings?(I originally wrote a longer post - but I think it obscured and not clarified.) Are chimps similar enough to 'early' humans that they develop supernatural beliefs in a similar way?If so: Their god would be created because of something that they don't understand by a pattern dependant brain finding patterns where there are none. Their god would be modelled using a chimpocentric point of view. They would be trying to appease and/or communicate with their god.This would appear to be irrational to anyone else viewing this behaviour. Do we have any evidence of chimps (as a group) behaving irrationally?Do we have any evidence of chimps behaving as if there was an invisible chimp? (These questions are equally relevent to any animal.) Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Straggler writes:
I read the elephant link (the ape link is broken). Can we look at these examples and justifiably speculate that there is evidence of animals beliefs of the sort humans have repeatedly demonstrated?There doesn't appear to be any obviously irrational behaviour described relating to elephants. (Standing around a dead elephant could be interpretted as a lack of understanding that the death is permanent.) I've started searching the interwebs, and so far I have only found a reference to possible irrational choices made by animals. I will dig further...
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
What 'it' are you referring to?
And it could also indicate an almost unlimited number of things all unrelated to the supernatural.(This is not one of those 'Jon' questions where I end up asking you to define every word in your sentence.)
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
I agree that the stated elephant behaviours are open to multiple interpretation. Even with the species we know best, speculation related to a belief in the supernatural is often a real stretch. For example even finding items buried with people does not really support a belief in the supernatural. It can be explained by many other factors. My suggestion (speculation) is that if they were behaving in a religious manner, then it would appear inexplicable/irrational to us (unless we involve religion). If we saw a chimpanzee kneeling with their hands pressed together and making quiet noises, would we be able to explain that behaviour without mentioning religion?
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
Ok, a hypothetical situation: Panda writes:
We can explain what they are doing, but not what they are thinking. If we saw a chimpanzee kneeling with their hands pressed together and making quiet noises, would we be able to explain that behaviour without mentioning religion? If we saw wild chimpanzees kneeling with their hands pressed together and making quiet noises: what would be the explanation (without mentioning religion)? Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
(I think I misunderstood your previous point.) That they are kneeling with their hands pressed together and making quiet noises; we can't go much further than that. We can look at their next acts and see if that tells us more but that's about it.So, you agree that we could identify if animals were behaving irrationally (as opposed to 'hunting', etc.). Ok: the other part of my 'hypothesis' was that their gods would be Chimpocentric - their gods would be based on themselves. So my 'speculation' would mean that we should see chimps behaving in a manner as if there was an unseen chimp.e.g. Leaving favourite chimp food in a tree which no chimp eats. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
So, what reason could be given for chimps putting good food in a tree and then not eating it (maybe even then going off and eating food)? Panda writes:
Again, I would not go as far as to say why they did that or that it implies any particular belief system. So my 'speculation' would mean that we should see chimps behaving in a manner as if there was an unseen chimp.e.g. Leaving favourite chimp food in a tree which no chimp eats. You seem to be arguing that we cannot identify what animals are doing unless we can talk to them - which is patently untrue.Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifyable? Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : typo
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
'Pretend' religious behaviour is still religious behaviour - and the reasons people fake religious behaviour is because of existing religious beliefs and behaviour (in themselves or others). There are atheistic pastors and people that follow all the rituals and still not believe. Sometimes (pretty often) their motivation is family peace, what someone else believes, comradeship or social networking, the food, fear or custom. You cannot (sincerely or otherwise) behave religiously unless religion exists - by definition. Edited by Panda, : clarity
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Jon writes: It is very easy to identify what they are doing: watch them. The problem comes with trying to link the behavior to thoughts that might be considered 'beliefs in the supernatural'; we simply have no basis for making such a link when it comes to animals. Panda writes:
Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifyable?
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
But we were discussing "Do animals behave religiously". But it is not belief. The topic is "Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?"We have been discussing this for a while. I am left wondering why you (only now) consider it off-topic. jar writes:
I am not trying to ascribe my beliefs: I am trying to interpret animal behaviour. In addition even there all you are doing is ascribing YOUR beliefs to other critters. They could have entirely different beliefs yet exhibit the same behaviors.Identification of animal behaviour is done all the time by people all over the world. So why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable?
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
So why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable?
jar writes:
Yes, and I showed you why you were wrong and you replied that I was off-topic. I explained that above.Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable? jar writes:
And how is mating behaviour different to group behaviour? How is religious behavior different than the behavior of soccer fans?But we happily talk about mating behaviour and group behaviour. Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable? jar writes:
...but we can identify all other kinds of behaviour without the knowledge gained by communication. I do not think that without the knowledge gained by communication with other humans we could identify religious behavior.Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable? Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
jar writes:
And yet we have identified animals doing all of those things. We identify clothing, paintings, buildings, gatherings, song, dance, most every activity based on the knowledge gained by communicating with other humans. None of that is possible yet with other species.(I would provide links, but google is full of them. Just type "animal dance", "animal buildings", etc.) Why do you think that religious behaviour is uniquely unidentifiable? Edited by Panda, : No reason given. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
How do we discriminate between dance for fun and religious dance, a church from a stadium or theater, hands raised in religious praise from fans doing the wave?
So: how do we determine religious behaviour (from other behaviour)...? ...and we are back to the start. Message 92Panda writes: Do we have any evidence of chimps (as a group) behaving irrationally?Do we have any evidence of chimps behaving as if there was an invisible chimp? Well, that was fun, but I CBA to go 'round again.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
onifre writes:
Yup. Wouldn't your first instict be to think that they are simply copying what humans do?And it would be easy enough to test for: Are there any humans in the area doing what the chimps are doing?If no, "could we reasonably infer religious behaviours and associated sorts of beliefs on the basis of comparison with humans?"
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