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Author Topic:   Does ID follow the scientific method?
PaulK
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Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 56 of 289 (592158)
11-19-2010 2:14 AM


The primary ID methodology is to control public opinion and through that to force the science curriculum into promoting a "science" that is more congenial to their religious beliefs.
This is why they focus more on popular works and high school texts than on actual scientific research. Do not forget that ID started with a high school text - even though ID does not have a real theory even now.
This is why they lie about being "persecuted". Despite his claims Dembski has never even come close to being fired for believing in ID - but he would be fired from his current job if he were not a creationist and was nearly fired for doubting the global extent of Noah's Flood.
This is why the OECs who make up the bulk of the ID leadership will not denounce young-earthism. They need YEC support for their ambitions of success through political action.
This is why the religious aspect of ID is both emphasised and denied. It is good for convincing the religious masses - but poison when it comes to forcing their way into the U.S. education system.
If ID were even a nascent fringe science it would not be like this. There would be more scientific research, and many more publications. They would have started with at least the outline of a theory and should have firmed it up considerably by now. If all that had been done there might, maybe, be a popular book or two, but the public profile would be far lower - and of course there would be no YEC alliance. As it is, it is clear that what little science there is in ID is a largely unsuccessful sideline maintained only because it has apologetic value to have SOME scientific effort however poor it might be.
So no, ID does not really use the scientific method. The conclusion of design is - for virtually all ID supporters - a religious conclusion with no real scientific basis. What matters to ID is the promotion of this conclusion - above and beyond such small considerations as truth and morality.

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by dwise1, posted 11-19-2010 2:26 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 64 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2010 3:14 AM PaulK has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 92 of 289 (592314)
11-19-2010 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Dawn Bertot
11-19-2010 3:14 AM


quote:
It is not FOR ME a question of religious preference or social nonsense, but one of pure logic
Since you are not a representative of ID and have no grasp of logic whatsoever (as you thoroughly proved in a LONG thread) this claim is both off-topic and false.
But since I have no interest in debate with a lunatic Trekkie - especially one who is clearly ignorant of the topic of the thread - I have nothing more to say to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-19-2010 3:14 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Dawn Bertot, posted 11-20-2010 4:03 AM PaulK has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 114 of 289 (592419)
11-20-2010 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by marc9000
11-19-2010 8:54 PM


The Case of "Junk DNA"
I think that it is instructive to deal with the way science and ID treat this issue.
Scientists discovered that large amounts of DNA did NOT code for proteins - and had no identifiable purpose. The (misleading) term "junk DNA" attached itself to the non-coding DNA. It must be noted, however, that not all noncoding DNA is true junk (and this has been known for a long time). Parts of it do play useful and even important roles - but much of it does not.
It should be noted that Darwinian theory does NOT predict that there should be large amounts of useless DNA - quite the contrary. Resources expended in duplicating useless DNA are wasted, and thus a drag on evolutionary fitness. The obvious expectation is that useless DNA would be lost.
Scientists, of course, did not stop there. They started - and continued - to investigate. To find the mechanisms producing non-coding DNA and even to look for functions (the evolutionary paradigm providing a convenient way to locate likely functional areas - something that ID cannot offer). While function has been demonstrated for some small fraction of non-coding DNA, the majority still remains without known function or even a solid reason to assume function. And ID supporters rely heavily on selectively promoting (and often misrepresenting) the work of these, genuine, scientists.
"Junk DNA" is also useful for identifying common ancestry, and the real junk is especially for countering creationism. Creationism cannot reasonably account for useless DNA shared between separately created species and this may be one reason why the creationists in the ID movement are especially hostile to the idea of "Junk DNA". Typically IDists try to avoid forming any hypothesis based on design even going as far as to say "Intelligent Design is not optimal design" (giving a pass to any "design", no matter how stupid). However on this issue they have gone to the extent of making the assertion that ALL DNA is functional almost a dogma of the movement.
The essay that Marc linked is a typical example of ID propaganda.
The title is:
quote:
Intelligent Design and the Death of the "Junk-DNA" Neo-Darwinian Paradigm
But "Junk DNA" is not a "neo-Darwinian paradigm" and it is not dead. You will note that Luskin mainly quote media sources on the discovery rather than actual scientific papers. (And contrary to what it seems that Marc would have you believe it was mainstream science, not ID researchers who made the discoveries that inspired the article).
The first study, is based on the opossum genome project. The Wired article that Luskin links to appears to be an ID-friendly puff-piece which says very little about the work (the fact that the article pays as much attention to Meyer's opinions as to the actual findings is proof of that !). If Luskin were offering anything like science (or even good science journalism) we could expect at least a reference to an actual paper.
Compare the Wired article with this, a more scientific look at the same results. And note that it specifically states that the changes occurred in regulatory elements (i.e. elements KNOWN to be functional) instead of using the "junk" term. There is nothing here to help the ID movement's assertions that there is no "Junk DNA" because regulatory elements are nothing new.
The other major piece of mainstream science - a study that indicated that a very large proportion of the human genome is transcribed (i.e. it did NOT actually identify functions for DNA) has itself come under question. Contrary to Marc's frequently repeated (and never demonstrated) assertion real science does undergo checks to confirm results (hence, for instance, the fall of "cold fusion" and the reason why the Wow! Signal is not accepted as proof of extraterrestrial life). And the Encode study is no exception - this investigated the results, and came to a quite different conclusion.

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 Message 97 by marc9000, posted 11-19-2010 8:54 PM marc9000 has not replied

PaulK
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Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 227 of 289 (592800)
11-22-2010 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by marc9000
11-21-2010 7:41 PM


This pretty much confirms my impression of the so-called relevant parts of your post. All they amount to is badmouthing scientists, on the assumption that the evidence must really support ID and practically all scientists are atheists and are therefore prejudiced against ID.
Of course, in reality there are a substantial number of Christians working within science - and ID is a minority even there. Even Behe has moved considerably towards mainstream science from his creationist roots, and away from the mainstream of ID thought.
Furthermore it seems that you think that a prejudice in favour of ID is a better basis for scientific judgement than actual knowledge. While consistent with your own methodology that is hardly a reasonable position. The best judges of what is biologically reasonable are those who understand the biology, of course.
Finally I should point out that vague suggestions for work that might be done is hardly evidence that work is being done, let alone that it is being done according to the scientific method. This topic is about the methods actually followed by the ID movement, not about what they might do if they decided to follow Behe's program.

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 Message 223 by marc9000, posted 11-21-2010 7:41 PM marc9000 has not replied

PaulK
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Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 258 of 289 (592920)
11-22-2010 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Buzsaw
11-22-2010 6:25 PM


Re: Applying The Scientific Method
Still on Wyatt and Moeller ? Wyatt was hardly scientific. He was incapable of doing decent research (wrong about the Bible, wrong about the satellite data, wrong about Egyptology). He was incapable of conducting a decent archaeological investigation. He was a liar and a fraud. And he found no significant evidence. While we don't have the same evidence of dishonesty against Moeller he saw even less than Wyatt "discovered" and was not much more competent either.
Real archaeologists did a far better job - and that is how we know that the Exodus DIDN'T occur as the Bible describes it.
And you know perfectly well why Ballard won't bother with Wyatt's bullshit. because it IS bullshit. THe evidence just isn't there, and you know it.

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 Message 254 by Buzsaw, posted 11-22-2010 6:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 283 of 289 (593072)
11-24-2010 1:51 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Buzsaw
11-23-2010 9:15 PM


Re: Applying The Scientific Method
quote:
Taq, you people keep on keeping on hollering for evidence and other SM data when all you need to do is view the researched MSM evidence on Lennart Moller's Exodus Video or read his excellent book, THE EXODUS CASE which peers, if you will, the MSM scientifically researched data.
If there really is significant evidence in the video or book why do you - and all the other Wyatt supporters who have ever been to this site - try to palm us off with rubbish instead ?
It seems to me that the main difference in your "method" is that it institutionalises your own biases. The only "god" truly in it is you. Thus you want there to be significant evidence for Wyatt's claims therefore to you there is (and the fact that there isn't can be ignored). You want Wyatt and Moller to be using the scientific method instead of doing shoddy crank research at best therefore to you they are never mind their many hopeless errors. The same methodology applies to your so-called "Bible study" (which is nothing of the sort).
But doubtless you disagree. So then I'll challenge you to defebnd the rewrite of Egyptian history favoured by Wyatt and Moller. Egyptian history is much easier to research (and I have a source actually used to "support" some of their arguments - Tyldesly's Hatsepshut).
Surely, if they are being scientific such a major change to Egyptian history must be supported by sound evidence - and deal with the evidence supporting the mainstream view, too.
Of course my position is that they are not being scientific, that the rewrite is nonsense and that they ignored the real evidence because they - like you - placed personal bias way above intellectual honesty and scientific integrity. The real evidence fails to show any support for their claims and in fact refutes them on some significant points.
If you say that you will dare to defend them I will start the thread. I don't think that you will. I think that you know in your heart that Wyatt and Moller are peddling bullshit and that you are only pretending to have the evidence.

This message is a reply to:
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