Articulating In The Debates; The Proper And The Improper.

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If the word "fuck" is good enough for a century of men and women in the armed services who have risked life and limb in defense of our nation and its freedoms, then it's good enough to trip off my tongue and more than good enough for your poor unsullied ears.

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As a former US Marine, I can tell you that the "f" word does not trip off my tongue (or my keyboard). It did not trip off my late father's tongue or my two uncles either. They were all Marines in the mid 50's.I've had relatives in every branch of the service. When the family gathers together, I don't hear profanity.I can also tell you that the word does not trip off a Marine's tongue with no regard to who they are talking to or the company surrounding them. They adjust to fit the "audience".My late Ex-husband, who was also a Marine for over 15 years, was not adverse to using profanity; but he adjusted to the people around him. In mixed company or around children he didn't use it, when he was with his buddies playing sports or at the Enlisted Club drinking beers he used it. He was also a writer and he didn't use it in his general writing.In my day, DI's were not allowed to use profane language in recruit training (still aren't today) and I didn't hear any while I was at Parris Island.If the men and women in the armed services who have risked life and limb in defense of our nation and its freedoms can understand that profanity is not acceptable in all situations and can adjust accordingly, then I'm sure you can too.

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And the notion that the nation's veterans are shrinking violets who can't bear to hear a dirty word at times is, frankly, offensive.

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Wow, you really missed the point.The common courtesy to not speak profanity in social situations or on a public forum does not make one a shrinking violet. Asking one to refrain from profanity in a public forum does not make one a shrinking violet. Profanity doesn't make one strong or brave.I've seen documentaries. I didn't say they never used profanity. I said that military people can and do adjust to the situation. There are over 2 million people in our military and my guess is that you haven't seen every single one of them in those documentaries (no I haven't either). Buz and I have given you examples that show that not all military people use profanity as your statement implies. I've given you examples of Marines who adjust their use of profanity to the audience.

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All of these men could swear the air blue in front of them, as the need arose. I envy their ability to express themselves with a torrent of profanity. I'm not saying my dad swore in church or to little children.

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See they adjusted according to their audience.You use our honorable men and women of the service to support your use of profanity with no regard for the listener, but miss the point that our military personnel do have self control when it comes to profanity and they can and do adjust to their audience.

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You're asking people to censor themselves. If Percy wants profanity to be against the rules, he can put in rules to that effect. It'd be easy enough to code the board to reject messages with profanity or otherwise obscure dirty words. Message 64

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Just because something is allowed, doesn't mean it should be done. Self control is an admirable quality.Is it so unreasonable to adjust if someone asks that profanity not be used when addressing their posts? Reserve your profanity for your like minded "buddies" on EvC.Edited by purpledawn, : Typo

Yes, profanity was a staple of the Marine Drill Instructors as well as rough physical treatment. In the mid 70's, the Marine Corps banned corporal punishment in boot camp after an apparently retarded recruit died during the pugil stick practice.By the time I enlisted in 1978 recruits could not be physically abused by DI's. Not sure if the men could still be verbally abusive or not, but they aren't allowed to now. Recruit training for men and women in the Marine Corps is separate. Profanity wasn't allowed in the training of women marines.

This goes to clear communication and understanding since the "f" word is just a word, it should be easy to understand when used.Last Christmas Eve in the Faith and Belief Forum you started a thread to remind Christians they were celebrating a pagan holiday. Since it IS Christmas time......I found this little gem of yours in Message 10. This seems to be a favorite usage of yours. What does it mean?

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What makes any of you feel so special that you should have the internet censored just for you? Why should we censor ourselves just for you? They're just words, people. What really makes fuck any worse than frig used in the same context? They are words that have a stigma attached to them and you lot have decided they hurt your feelings, but why?

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Words carry meaning and express feelings, intentions, etc. They aren't all equal or equally benign.Profanity is more visceral and usually carries emotions of frustration and anger. (I've already commented that presentation and audience also makes a difference) The person reading or hearing these words feel those emotions. That is what makes some uncomfortable with the usage. Not the word itself. It is the anger being projected or perceived. When anger is projected, people tend to respond in like manner.There's a reason that profanity is called strong language.This is a debate board and Percy, our host, provided a quote from the Encylopedia Brittanica under the Forum Guidelines. A person using profanity is not emotionally uncommitted or sufficiently detached and is not maintaining a cool academic approach to the discussion.IMO, Percy has set an example of how he would like to see debates argued. If you search, you will see that Percy doesn't use the "f" word. While he doesn't want Admins to deal with censoring, he does have standards and I feel he also leads by example. Here is an good explanation he provided in 2005. So your comment in Message 45 shows that you don't understand what a personal attack is in this forum. The avatar isn't participating in the discussion. People are participating in the discussion. If you call Buz a scumbag, you are calling the man behind the name a scumbag; not the avatar.I feel profanity is unnecessary in the regular debate forums.

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If it doesn't mean anything to you, then Hooah may have picked up from this side of the pond, where "fuck all" is old and common, and means an emphatic "nothing".

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I would have understood "jack shit".In the main debate forums, (Not Coffee House or Free for All), what is the point of adding the stronger and potentially offensive slang for the word?"Jack shit" is common in my neck of the woods, but I wouldn't use it in a debate.Since you said emphatic, it seems the choice is due to adding more negative emotion to the response. This takes us away from being detached. When a person is speaking we can usually tell the level of emotion by their presentation. Unfortunately in a written forum we lose that added aspect of the discussion.More than likely, a reader will perceive a level of emotion they have experienced by others speaking the word. If one's experience with the "f" word has always been negative or extreme anger, that may be what they perceive.Since the nature of a debate is to disagree, IMO, the added emotion of profanity just fans the flames and escalates the conflict. I think it makes it more personal, again depending on how the word is used.

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It's not a "public forum." It's an internet forum.

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And the difference is what concerning profanity?

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You and Buz deciding to act like children doesn't create a "situation" where I feel obligated not to use dirty words, lest you retire to your feinting couch.

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Just because you decide to act childish, doesn't mean that the rest of us have to follow suit. If you find adult language not to your liking, I'm sure there's a forum where you can talk about last night's Murder, She Wrote completely free of objectionable language.

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Knowing that there are no rules at EvC concerning the use of profanity except when used to insult an individual, why do you stoop to insulting me by calling my actions childish and imply I can't handle the sight of profanity?One member has simply said that he prefers people didn't use profanity. There's nothing childish about that. It isn't childish to be polite or to ask someone to be polite.I've acknowledged that profanity is used in many different ways and not all are offensive or intended as such.Just because I don't use the "f" word doesn't mean I don't use profanity when the occasion arises. Just because I choose not to use profanity at EvC, doesn't mean I don't use profanity when the occasion arises. That goes back to the whole adjust to the audience thing I was talking about.As I said before, using profanity doesn't make one strong and choosing not to use it doesn't make one childish or weak.

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Yes, I think my point, which perhaps you have grasped at last, is that it is unreasonable to demand someone "adjust" - self-censor - just because someone asks for profanity not to be used.

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No one has demanded anything, that I know of anyway. This thread is merely about discussing things that get in the way of quality debate and profanity, depending on how it is used, does tend to get in the way.When people don't wish to comply with a personal request, the requester just has to decide which is more important. It's easiest to just consider the source, move on, and address only the portions of the post that are on topic.

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The word fuck isn't always used to convey anger. It is just you who think people are angry when they use curse words.

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Now if you had paid attention to the rest that quote, you wouldn't have wasted the words. I also said: It is the anger being projected or perceived. When talking with someone face to face, we can easily tell when they are conveying anger and when they aren't. In a written forum, it is more difficult and as you noticed there can also be a difference in cultural usage. As I said to crashfrog, just because I choose not to use the "f" word or to use profanity in my writings on EvC, don't assume that I don't use profanity in various forms in the real world.

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Nope, I am calling Buzsaw, the poster, a scumbag. I do not know who the guy sitting behind the computer is. This is the internet, not real life.

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That explains a lot. I think that is also one problem with some people and the internet, they forget that people are behind the internet. They feel no need for common courtesy because they don't see a person with feelings, they see an avatar or a machine. That is a shame, but now you know the difference and hopefully you will adjust and not insult the avatars in any way, shape, or form at EvC.I guess that's why crash thinks the internet is different than a public forum.Now in a debate one can argue any side of the debate they want whether they believe it or not. That's why I find it fascinating that you and crash assume I personally (in the real world) have issues with seeing profanity. That's also why we shouldn't carry issues from one thread to another. A member can always take a different stance.As Ringo said in Message 94:This isn't a fantasy role-playing game; it's a (fairly) serious discussion board.

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However, I was just being informative and giving you the meaning of the expression and a bit of strange but hopefully interesting possible history, rather than joining in the discussion. I personally don't mind people swearing.

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I know, but you don't make it personal or think I'm childish because I ask practical or direct questions.

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My personal complaints would be about practical things, like people capitalizing so that we can easily distinguish between sentences. I think we should make our posts as clear as we can, so that they can be read rather than having to be deciphered.

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Unfortunately sometimes we have to decipher slang as well. Thanks for the info.

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Well, I must have mistaken you then. You made it sound as though you perceived all of my fucks as anger.

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Really, you can't go back and read what I wrote and actually decide if you misunderstood? It's all right there in black and white.What sentences made you feel that I perceived all your "f" words as anger?We are talking about communication here, why didn't you understand what I wrote?

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That sure sounds to me like you perceive it that way, since you seem to be associating profanity with negativity.

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Where do I mention my personal perception of all your uses of the "f" word?I was talking to bluegenes about the slang phrase "f all". I made no judgment on your usage of it. I'm just talking about profanity in general and how it can cause problems in a debate, depending on how it is used. (I keep typing that, but you don't seem to understand it.)So why use the profane slang that some may not understand as opposed to the more neutral word?
What does it add to your statement?

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YOU are the one making the reasons why one should not use profanity.

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I'm not making reasons why one should not use profanity. I'm showing why profanity can be a hindrance to debate and understanding, depending on how it is used. My position is that people do adjust or censor themselves when in mixed company. I don't consider it unreasonable for someone to ask that profanity not be used in posts addressing them. If the person using profanity does not wish to oblige the person's request, then the requester has to decide their if they wish to continue discussion with that person. But it isn't unreasonable or childish to ask.

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This thread is directed at me, PD. I've taken quite the personal interest in it.

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I'm not the thread or the originator of the thread. Pay attention to what I write and what I am arguing. Don't assume it's about you unless I say it is.

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I did understand. It's called sarcasm.

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But you didn't understand. You jumped to wrong conclusions.

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Apparently the difference is how many oldsters I have to listen complain about it.

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Good non answer.

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And other members, including myself, have made it clear that they would prefer to continue to use profanity.

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That puts us all at loggerheads, I'm afraid. But for some reason you seem to believe that Buz's preference should win out, but the only reason you have for that belief is that Buz's preference is one that you share.

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I didn't say that or imply that. I said he had a right to ask. It is your choice whether you comply or not.As I said in the post: When people don't wish to comply with a personal request, the requester just has to decide which is more important. It's easiest to just consider the source, move on, and address only the portions of the post that are on topic.

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Insisting that your preferences are the only ones that matter is the definition of being childish.

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Except that I didn't. Please show me where I insisted that my preferences are the only ones that matter.ABE: This is a debate board. The point is to pick a side and defend/support it. If presenting or defending my position as "correct" is childish, then all of EvC is acting childish.Edited by purpledawn, : ABE

I thought about the difference of profanity in written form vs verbal.Hearing profanity is not speaking profanity, but when profanity is written is forces the reader to "speak" the word in their mind.Frako used the old symbol version of profanity in an off topic post. When I read that, I don't "speak" profanity in my mind, I just "say" bleep bleep. Now someone who chooses to speak profanity may fill in the blanks themselves.This may not ring true for all, but it was an interesting thought.Bottom line, the one doesn't wish to read profanity needs to decide if they will continue to read posts by members prone to profanity.

Here are two of your posts. One uses the words "means nothing" and the other uses the "f-all" which you have agreed is the same as means "nothing".The first one is interesting because your opponent didn't know what the "f-all" meant just as I didn't and English is my first and only language. This obviously created a communication problem. You had to explain with more force by "yelling" in Message 147. As your opponent put it, he doesn't speak potty mouth. What is also interesting about the above post is that even Admin stated in a message to your opponent that you were stating in the strongest terms possible. Slang kinda got in the way of communication.Here is the second post. So why the switch in vocabulary? Why didn't you use the "f-all" slang in the second post?

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Seriously?

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You had no idea what "fuck all" means?

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Do you live in a convent on the top of a mountain surrounded by a lake of fire?

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I am just mystified as to how you could have passed through life without ever having come across this phrase somewhere.

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Even if only previously at EvC.........

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Nope. As I stated in Message 91, "jack shit" is the more common expression in my area and the people I encounter, but overall I don't encounter that much profanity in my daily life. I see more here at EvC than I hear in my daily life.I assumed it meant "nothing" or something to that effect by the usage in the sentence and from what I know about Hooah's previous thoughts concerning the Bible, but that was only an assumption. If I'm going to comment on it, I wanted to know what he meant by it.I don't participate on the science side except for A&I and the people prone to profanity aren't usually my opponents on the religious side. As an Admin, I scan for inflammatory tones between members and then look for the source of the inflammation. I can usually tell whether the strong language is aimed at the person as opposed to the usage I've quoted. I don't have to know what it means to see that the profanity itself wasn't aimed at the opponent.Profanity isn't necessarily a staple in everyone's life.