Data, Information, and all that....

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Crashfrog: When we read DNA, the information isn't in the DNA, it's in our heads. Therefore information theory is irrelevant to biology, because DNA contains no information.

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DNA contains no information????? Surely you're kidding.Why do you think you are a human instead of a fruit fly, or a cactus, or a sponge? Gee, could it be because of the genetic information stored in your DNA?As far as the validity of applying information theory to DNA, try looking around these pages and their links some:http://www-lmmb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/sequencelogo.htmlhttp://www.lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/glossary.html[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-12-2003]

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Crashfrog: When we read DNA, the information isn't in the DNA, it's in our heads. Therefore information theory is irrelevant to biology, because DNA contains no information.

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DNAunion: DNA contains no information????? Surely you're kidding.

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Crashfrog: Nope. Why would I be kidding?

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Because the alternative is that you are ignorant. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.But since you now acknowledge that you actually believe DNA does not contain information, read the following and learn.

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In Part I of the text we discussed the presence of genes on chromosomes that control phenotypic traits and the way in which the chromosomes are transmitted through gametes to future offspring. Logically, some form of information must be contained in genes, which, when passed to a new generation, influences the form and characteristics of the offspring; this is called the genetic information. (emphasis added, Concepts of Genetics: Fifth Edition, William S Klug & Michael R Cummings, Prentice Hall, 1997, p262)

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Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) is the storehouse, or cellular library, that contains all the information required to build the cells and tissues of an organism. (Molecular Cell Biology: Fourth Edition, Harrvey Lodish, Arnold Beck, S. Lawrence Zipursky, Paul Matsudaira, David Baltimore, & James Darnell, W.H Freeman & Co., 2000, p100)

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Nucleic acids are complex substances of high molecular weight that represent a basic manifestation of life. The sequence of nitrogenous bases in these polymeric molecules encodes the genetic information necessary for all aspects of biological inheritance. (Integrated Principles of Zoology: Tenth Edition, Cleveland P Hickman Jr., Larry S. Roberts, & Allan Larson, WCB McGraw-Hill, 1996, p7)

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"Nucleic acids are substituted polymers of the aldopentose ribose that carry an organism's genetic information. A tiny amount of DNA in a fertilized egg cell determines the physical characteristics of the fully developed animal. The difference between a frog and a human being is encoded in a relatively small part of the DNA. Each cell carries a complete set of genetic instructions that determine the type of cell, what its function will be, when it will grow and divide, and how it will synthesize all the proteins, enzymes, carbohydrates, and other substances the cell and the organism need to survive. ... DNA is relatively stable, providing a medium for transmisiion of genetic information from generation to generation." (Organic Chemistry: Fourth Edition, L. G. Wade Jr., Prentice Hall, 1999, p1103)

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A crucial feature of a nucleic acid molecule is the sequence of the four bases along the strand, called the base sequence. The molecules are huge, with molecular masses ranging into the billions for mammalian DNA, so the four bases may be arranged in an essentially infinite number of variations. The specific sequence of the bases along the chain is the information storage system needed to build organisms. (General Chemistry: An Integrated Approach: Second Edition, John W Hill & Ralph H Petrucci, Prentice Hall, 1999, p984)

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Now we know that an organism’s inherited instructions reside in the genetic information of each of its cells as DNA, and we can tell a coherent genetic story starting with this molecules.

​

But first let’s step back and use Figure 14-1 to preview how DNA functions as instructional information in cells and, at the same time, how this unit of chapters on information flow in cells is organized. The information carried by DNA flows both between generations of cells and within each individual cell. As Figure 14-1a indicates, the information carried in a eukaryotic cell’s DNA is passed on to daughter cells by the processes of DNA replication and mitosis. Chapter 16 considers the cellular and molecular bases of information flow between generations of sexually reproducing organisms (including Mendel’s work and its chromosomal basis). (The World of the Cell: Third Edition, Wayne M Becker, Jane B Reece, & Martin F Poenie, Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Co., 1996, p408)

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Every organism, even the simplest, contains a massive amount of information in the form of DNA. The major carriers of genetic information in eukaryotes are the chromosomes contained within the cell nucleus. Chromosomes are made up of chromatin, a complex material that consists of fibers containing protein and deoxyribonucleic acid. Each chromosome may contain hundreds or even thousands of genes. As will be evident in succeeding chapters, our concept of the gene has changed considerably since the beginnings of the science of genetics, but our definitions have always centered on the gene as an informational unit. By providing the information needed to carry out one or more specific cellular functions, a gene ultimately affects some characteristics of the organism. For example, we speak of genes controlling eye color in humans, wing length in fruit flies, seed color in peas, and so on. (Biology: Fifth Edition, Eldra Pearl Solomon, Linda R Berg, & Diana W Martin, Saunders College Publishing, 1999, p198-199)

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"The sequence of bases in a DNA or RNA molecule is informational, representing the genetic information necessary to reproduce an identical copy of the oragnism." (Biology of Microorganisms: Sixth Edition, Thomas D Brock & Michael T Madigan, Prentice Hall, 1991, p31)

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Genetics is the science of heredity; it includes the study of what genes are, how they carry information, how they are replicated and passed to subsequent generations of cells or passed between organisms, and how the expression of their information within an organism determines the particular characteristics of that organism. Chromosomes are cellular structures that physically carry hereditary information; the chromosomes contain the genes. Genes are segments of DNA (except in some viruses, in which they are made of RNA) that code for functional products.

​

First, the linear sequence of bases provides the actual information. Genetic information is encoded by the sequence of bases along a strand of DNA, in much the same way as our written language uses a linear sequence of letters to form words and sentences. But 1000 of these four bases, the number contained in an average gene, can be arranged in 4^1000 different ways. This astronomically large number explains how genes can be varied enough to provide all the information a cell needs to grow and perform its functions. (Microbiology: And Introduction: Sixth Edition, Gerard J Tortora, Berdell R Funke, & Christine L Case, Benjamin Cummings, 1998, p207-208)

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I could have found dozens of other quotes, but this large batch from multiple college texts should suffice -- at least for any RATIONAL AND HONEST person -- to show that biologists, and even chemists, clearly state that DNA contains information. This is game, set, and match, DNAunion!************************************
Oh, and you didn't address the links I provided that confirmed the validity of applying information theory to DNA. Here they are again, for your convenience.http://www-lmmb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/sequencelogo.htmlhttp://www.lecb.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/glossary.html[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-13-2003]

For good measure, here are more quotes from mainstream (i.e., not ID or Creationist) science books for the general public. Note that these quotes are provided as mere icing on the cake: the cake itself is the many college-text quotes I provided in my previous post.

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For some single-celled organisms whose DNA nucleotide strings have only a fraction of the length of those in our own cells, we can make a crude estimate of the information content. The DNA of an amoeba (a nonsocial one), for example, holds on the order of 10^9 bits. In other words, one billion yes/no instructions are written down in that four-letter script — enough to make another amoeba. This script contains everything an amoeba ever needs to know — how to make its enzymes, how to make its cell membrane, how to slink about, how to digest the foodstuffs, how to react when it gets too dry or too hot, how to reproduce itself. And all of that information is enscrolled into a space so small you would need a good microscope to make it out. If you wanted to give all these instructions in the English language, they would fill some 300 volumes of the size of this book (the information content of an average printed page in English is roughly 10,000 bits). (The Touchstone of Life: Molecular Information, Cell Communication, and the Foundations of Life, Werner R. Loewenstein, Oxford University Press, 1999, p16)

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[Schrodinger’s] book, titled What is Life?, is a classic — still in print, and well worth seeking out — that expounded the idea that the fundamental molecules of life could be understood in terms of the laws of physics. The important molecules to explain in those terms are the genes that carry information about how the body is to be constructed and how it is to operate.

​

The order in which different chemical components, called bases, are strung along the DNA spines carries information that the living cell uses to construct the protein molecules that do all the work (In Search of Schrodinger’s Cat: Quantum Physics and Reality, John Gribbin, Bantam Books, 1984, p149)

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All of cellular life is involved in transforming inputs into outputs, the way computers do. Cells are not just little bags of alphabet soup, full of things like ATP and NADH, but are tiny chemical calculators. Compared to even the best of human computers, the living cell is an information processor extraordinaire.

​

This is a programming system that’s been around three billion years, Adelman said. I’ll bet it has a lot to tell us aobut how to program....It’s a dazzling display of information processing ability.

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... The DNA in a cell contains enough information not only to make a human body, but to operate one for a lifetime. A gram of dried-out DNA — about the size of two pencil erasers — stores as much information as maybe a trillion CD-ROM disks, Adelman points out. So long before Adelman realized that nature had beaten Alan Turing to the idea of a Turing machine, biologists knew that DNA was the master information storage molecule.

​

... Almost from the moment [Watson and Crick] figured out DNA’s design in 1953, it was clear that it stored the information necessary for life to function, reproduce, and evolve. (The Bit and the Pendulum: From Quantum Computing to M Theory — The New Physics of Information, Tom Siegfried, John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2000, p97)

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[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-13-2003]

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Although humans can derive information from the DNA and ascribe information, it is not information to the organism who holds it.

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An organism's DNA is information even without us around. If it weren't, then a mouse could be born from a chicken, or a whale from a cactus, or a human from a moth. Why doesn't that occur? Because the genetic information is there, in the cell, directing the processes involved in life: it is encoded information - a list of instructions. And it is these things whether humans are around or not. In fact, it was happening billions of years before we were even here.Anyone who claims that DNA does not contain information - and then goes on to stress that such is the case - gives the impression of being totally ignorant of biology: it's as simple as that.[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-13-2003]

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Dear DNAUnion,

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...

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- Rei

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Stop putting your name in your posts. We know who you are by the post itself. It's redudant and annoying and the moderators said we aren't to do it.

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Actually it's more of a case of me being ignorant of what information is, and no amount of "biologists say there's information in DNA" is going to tell me what information is.

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But it will show all of us that DNA does contain information, and that I was correct...and that you were wrong when you asserted that I was wrong.

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Tell you what. Tell me what information is, and I'll tell you if I think that's in DNA or not.

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Uhm, way ahead of you. Read the web pages I provided links to days ago and then reposted again (I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink).[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-14-2003]

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DNA is a self-replicating molecule, unlike any human invention.

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Wrong. DNA is not self-replicating. Ever hear of DNA polymerase, helicases, single-strand binding proteins, topoisomerases, etc.?

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The only reason that you and other intelligent design creationists want to get carried away with the information analogy is so you can use it to prove your point that design requires a designer.

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Wrong again. I didn't state that a designer was required to put information into DNA. What I stated — and was 100% correct to state — was that DNA contains information. The rest is just YOUR imagination running wild.[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-14-2003]

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DNA doesn't 'contain' information.
Nothing does.

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I'd love to respond to your comments, but they contain no information. All I see is a sequence of symbols, and we all know that symbol sequences can't contain information...right?????[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-15-2003]

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DNA doesn't 'contain' information.

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Gee, I guess you missed all of this.

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In Part I of the text we discussed the presence of genes on chromosomes that control phenotypic traits and the way in which the chromosomes are transmitted through gametes to future offspring. Logically, some form of information must be contained in genes, which, when passed to a new generation, influences the form and characteristics of the offspring; this is called the genetic information. (emphasis added, Concepts of Genetics: Fifth Edition, William S Klug & Michael R Cummings, Prentice Hall, 1997, p262)

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Deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA) is the storehouse, or cellular library, that contains all the information required to build the cells and tissues of an organism. (Molecular Cell Biology: Fourth Edition, Harrvey Lodish, Arnold Beck, S. Lawrence Zipursky, Paul Matsudaira, David Baltimore, & James Darnell, W.H Freeman & Co., 2000, p100)

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Nucleic acids are complex substances of high molecular weight that represent a basic manifestation of life. The sequence of nitrogenous bases in these polymeric molecules encodes the genetic information necessary for all aspects of biological inheritance. (Integrated Principles of Zoology: Tenth Edition, Cleveland P Hickman Jr., Larry S. Roberts, & Allan Larson, WCB McGraw-Hill, 1996, p7)

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"Nucleic acids are substituted polymers of the aldopentose ribose that carry an organism's genetic information. A tiny amount of DNA in a fertilized egg cell determines the physical characteristics of the fully developed animal. The difference between a frog and a human being is encoded in a relatively small part of the DNA. Each cell carries a complete set of genetic instructions that determine the type of cell, what its function will be, when it will grow and divide, and how it will synthesize all the proteins, enzymes, carbohydrates, and other substances the cell and the organism need to survive. ... DNA is relatively stable, providing a medium for transmisiion of genetic information from generation to generation." (Organic Chemistry: Fourth Edition, L. G. Wade Jr., Prentice Hall, 1999, p1103)

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A crucial feature of a nucleic acid molecule is the sequence of the four bases along the strand, called the base sequence. The molecules are huge, with molecular masses ranging into the billions for mammalian DNA, so the four bases may be arranged in an essentially infinite number of variations. The specific sequence of the bases along the chain is the information storage system needed to build organisms. (General Chemistry: An Integrated Approach: Second Edition, John W Hill & Ralph H Petrucci, Prentice Hall, 1999, p984)

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Now we know that an organism’s inherited instructions reside in the genetic information of each of its cells as DNA, and we can tell a coherent genetic story starting with this molecules.

​

But first let’s step back and use Figure 14-1 to preview how DNA functions as instructional information in cells and, at the same time, how this unit of chapters on information flow in cells is organized. The information carried by DNA flows both between generations of cells and within each individual cell. As Figure 14-1a indicates, the information carried in a eukaryotic cell’s DNA is passed on to daughter cells by the processes of DNA replication and mitosis. Chapter 16 considers the cellular and molecular bases of information flow between generations of sexually reproducing organisms (including Mendel’s work and its chromosomal basis). (The World of the Cell: Third Edition, Wayne M Becker, Jane B Reece, & Martin F Poenie, Benjamin/Cummings Publishing Co., 1996, p408)

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Every organism, even the simplest, contains a massive amount of information in the form of DNA. The major carriers of genetic information in eukaryotes are the chromosomes contained within the cell nucleus. Chromosomes are made up of chromatin, a complex material that consists of fibers containing protein and deoxyribonucleic acid. Each chromosome may contain hundreds or even thousands of genes. As will be evident in succeeding chapters, our concept of the gene has changed considerably since the beginnings of the science of genetics, but our definitions have always centered on the gene as an informational unit. By providing the information needed to carry out one or more specific cellular functions, a gene ultimately affects some characteristics of the organism. For example, we speak of genes controlling eye color in humans, wing length in fruit flies, seed color in peas, and so on. (Biology: Fifth Edition, Eldra Pearl Solomon, Linda R Berg, & Diana W Martin, Saunders College Publishing, 1999, p198-199)

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"The sequence of bases in a DNA or RNA molecule is informational, representing the genetic information necessary to reproduce an identical copy of the oragnism." (Biology of Microorganisms: Sixth Edition, Thomas D Brock & Michael T Madigan, Prentice Hall, 1991, p31)

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Genetics is the science of heredity; it includes the study of what genes are, how they carry information, how they are replicated and passed to subsequent generations of cells or passed between organisms, and how the expression of their information within an organism determines the particular characteristics of that organism. Chromosomes are cellular structures that physically carry hereditary information; the chromosomes contain the genes. Genes are segments of DNA (except in some viruses, in which they are made of RNA) that code for functional products.

​

First, the linear sequence of bases provides the actual information. Genetic information is encoded by the sequence of bases along a strand of DNA, in much the same way as our written language uses a linear sequence of letters to form words and sentences. But 1000 of these four bases, the number contained in an average gene, can be arranged in 4^1000 different ways. This astronomically large number explains how genes can be varied enough to provide all the information a cell needs to grow and perform its functions. (Microbiology: And Introduction: Sixth Edition, Gerard J Tortora, Berdell R Funke, & Christine L Case, Benjamin Cummings, 1998, p207-208)

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**********************************

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For some single-celled organisms whose DNA nucleotide strings have only a fraction of the length of those in our own cells, we can make a crude estimate of the information content. The DNA of an amoeba (a nonsocial one), for example, holds on the order of 10^9 bits. In other words, one billion yes/no instructions are written down in that four-letter script — enough to make another amoeba. This script contains everything an amoeba ever needs to know — how to make its enzymes, how to make its cell membrane, how to slink about, how to digest the foodstuffs, how to react when it gets too dry or too hot, how to reproduce itself. And all of that information is enscrolled into a space so small you would need a good microscope to make it out. If you wanted to give all these instructions in the English language, they would fill some 300 volumes of the size of this book (the information content of an average printed page in English is roughly 10,000 bits). (The Touchstone of Life: Molecular Information, Cell Communication, and the Foundations of Life, Werner R. Loewenstein, Oxford University Press, 1999, p16)

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[Schrodinger’s] book, titled What is Life?, is a classic — still in print, and well worth seeking out — that expounded the idea that the fundamental molecules of life could be understood in terms of the laws of physics. The important molecules to explain in those terms are the genes that carry information about how the body is to be constructed and how it is to operate.

​

The order in which different chemical components, called bases, are strung along the DNA spines carries information that the living cell uses to construct the protein molecules that do all the work (In Search of Schrodinger’s Cat: Quantum Physics and Reality, John Gribbin, Bantam Books, 1984, p149)

---

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All of cellular life is involved in transforming inputs into outputs, the way computers do. Cells are not just little bags of alphabet soup, full of things like ATP and NADH, but are tiny chemical calculators. Compared to even the best of human computers, the living cell is an information processor extraordinaire.

​

This is a programming system that’s been around three billion years, Adelman said. I’ll bet it has a lot to tell us aobut how to program....It’s a dazzling display of information processing ability.

​

... The DNA in a cell contains enough information not only to make a human body, but to operate one for a lifetime. A gram of dried-out DNA — about the size of two pencil erasers — stores as much information as maybe a trillion CD-ROM disks, Adelman points out. So long before Adelman realized that nature had beaten Alan Turing to the idea of a Turing machine, biologists knew that DNA was the master information storage molecule.

​

... Almost from the moment [Watson and Crick] figured out DNA’s design in 1953, it was clear that it stored the information necessary for life to function, reproduce, and evolve. (The Bit and the Pendulum: From Quantum Computing to M Theory — The New Physics of Information, Tom Siegfried, John Wiley & Sons, Inc., 2000, p97)

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DNAunion: An organism's DNA is information even without us around. If it weren't, then a mouse could be born from a chicken, or a whale from a cactus, or a human from a moth. Why doesn't that occur? Because the genetic information is there, in the cell, directing the processes involved in life: it is encoded information - a list of instructions. And it is these things whether humans are around or not. In fact, it was happening billions of years before we were even here.

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Hydrogen must contain an awful lot of information then, since of all the chemicals in existence hydrogen can only form a small portion of them.

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You think you could restate that so it makes sense?[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-15-2003]

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DNA doesn't 'contain' information.
Nothing does.

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Wrong, most everything does.

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"What Is Information?
Information, in its connotation in physics, is a measure of order -- a universal measure applicable to any structure, any system. It quantifies the instructions that are needed to produce a certain organization. ... In general, then, we compute the information inherent in any given arrangement of matter (or energy) from the number of choices we must make to arrive at that particular arrangement among all equally possible ones." (The Touchstone of Life: Molecular Information, Cell Communication, and the Foundations of Life, Werner R Loewenstein, Oxford University Press, 1999, p6-7)

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[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-15-2003]

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Since arguments from authority don't hold you've fallen far short of proving there's information in DNA.

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I'd debate you more CrashFrog, but I don't think you have a brain. And you can't convince me that you do.Sure, you could post a ton of quotes from anatomy and physiology texts that state that humans have brains, BUT THAT WOULD BE AN ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY, AND WE SIMPLY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THOSE.Well, you could argue that you can think and reason, and therefore you must have a brain. But all that really shows is that you can think and reason, not that you have a brain. Of course, you could post a ton of material that shows scientists stating that only the brain can bestow upon humans that ability to think and reason, BUT THAT WOULD BE AN ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY, AND WE SIMPLY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THOSE.So, to convince us you have a brain, CrashFrog, you need to shave your head, crack open your skull, pull back the skin and bone and expose your skulls inside's, taking a picture of what you find and placing it here for us to examine.________________________________I also don't think you have any DNA, and you can't convince me otherwise. Sure, you can post tons of quotes from biologists that state that all humans have DNA, BUT THAT WOULD BE AN ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY, AND WE SIMPLY WILL NOT ACCEPT THOSE.I guess you could obtain some cells by taking a buccal smear and then argue that since you have functioning cells, they must contain DNA: even backing it up with logic and tons of quotes from biology texts. BUT THAT WOULD BE AN ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY, AND WE SIMPLY REFUSE TO ACCEPT THOSE.I guess you could photograph the cells undergoing mitosis and then provide a ton of biology quotes that state that the chromosomes you see condensing, lining up, and pulling apart contain DNA. BUT THAT WOULD BE AN ARGUMENT FROM AUTHORITY, AND WE SIMPLY WON'T ACCEPT THOSE.In fact, it might be IMPOSSIBLE for you to convince me that you have DNA in your cells without your having to use an argument from authority.Yeah, I like your logic CrashFrog. Using it, you can't argue that you have a brain nor that your cells contain DNA.[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-15-2003]

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Look, I don't waste time with arguments from authority, or the people who promulgate them.

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You obviously also don't waste time bothering with things like logic.

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If you can't tell me what the information is then it's not worth talking to you.

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If YOU don't know what information is, and YOU refuse to look at the material at the links I've provided to you over and over, and YOU refuse to do anything else that would teach you, then YOU CHOOSE to be ignorant. Don't try to push blame off onto me.In addition, you have no foundation for making alleged factual statements concerning information if you don't know what it is.[This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-15-2003]

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That point is illustrated here with you having to explain the transparently clear fact that there is a huge amount of information in the genome.

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I know. When I was looking up and typing out all of the quotes I kept asking myself why I even bothered. It's almost like wasting time pulling quotes from a slew of math books to prove that there's such as thing as a Pythagorean theorem. Anyone who knows anything about math knows there's a Pythagorean theorem, and anyone who knows anything about biology knows that DNA contains information. That DNA contains information is a no-brainer - it's completely obvious - it's self-evident - it needs no support.

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Heck, the experts in the field don't dispute this - their fight is over how it got there.

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I was going to bring this up. I can understand people arguing about how the information got there, but I can't understand at all how someone can actually argue that it isn't even there![This message has been edited by DNAunion, 12-15-2003]

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DNA doesn't 'contain' information.
Nothing does.

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Wrong, most everything does.

​

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"What Is Information?
Information, in its connotation in physics, is a measure of order -- a universal measure applicable to any structure, any system. It quantifies the instructions that are needed to produce a certain organization. ... In general, then, we compute the information inherent in any given arrangement of matter (or energy) from the number of choices we must make to arrive at that particular arrangement among all equally possible ones." (The Touchstone of Life: Molecular Information, Cell Communication, and the Foundations of Life, Werner R Loewenstein, Oxford University Press, 1999, p6-7)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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That's a physics specific definition, please show that
it is relvant to biological systems.

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Did you happen to catch the title of the book???