That simple direct language means something different to you than it meant to them. You have a modern secularist idea of all these things.
Proof please. Prove that the words written in the document do not mean what they say. Go ahead. Personal opinion on the subject, even from those who signed it, mean nothing. As was said before in this thread, why would they all have signed a document that they didn't believe in? Were they being pressured by Communist Socialist Liberals even then?! I can easily say I despise organized religion (which is true) and at the same time recognize that it would be harmful to completely remove it from society (which I also believe to be true). Are you willing to give these great men the same benefit?
They never ever thought in terms of government or life without God -- this is even true of the least religious of the founders, Jefferson and Franklin -- and the God they all refer to in their private correspondence is always the God of the Bible.
Yep, even that bastion of Christian glory
The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth: The Jefferson Bible. Jefferson loved the Bible so much that he thought to.... *gasp* rewrite it! His faith in the Bible must have been staggering! Face it Faith. No matter how much you try to stretch the truth or outright lie, the founding fathers were not the Christians you want them to be. In fact, I would wager that if you didn't actually know who they were you would never include them in the True Christian category. They would just be some other misguided fools being led by the agents of Satan on a mission to give True Christians a bad name.
I didn't say he believed that in those terms. I don't think he contradicted himself. You might if you give a different meaning to the Treaty's words than he does. But he clearly considered the U.S. to be founded on Christian PRINCIPLES and required these of the citizenry to guarantee our freedoms.
So.. he didn't believe that the government of the United States should be based on the Christian religion. You should really make up your mind about where you stand on this issue. Just Christian principles. I bet those principles you are talking about aren't in any way strictly Christian.
That's because it is not based on the Christian religion per se but on principles derived from it, and it is shot through with these.
Gotcha. It isn't REALLY based on Christianity, it just has some stuff in common with it. Do you know how much Christianity has in common with older traditions and forms of worship? Does that mean Christianity is based on those traditions and forms of worship? Or maybe it just means that some things are pretty good ideas no matter WHO comes up with them or WHERE they came from.
Seeing this takes understanding the historical context of the time and I don't claim to know a great deal about it myself but I have no doubt encountered more information about that era that supports my views than you have.
I do understand the historical context of the time. I have studied it quite intensely thank you. You are correct tho, you don't know much about it, and it certainly does you no good to act like you are superior.
But at the same time you have to reckon with the fact that they DID open Congress with prayer, and prayer in the name of Jesus Christ yet, and I believe I remember that as late as 1920 new members of Congress were welcomed in the name of Jesus Christ, and that many Presidents, notably Lincoln, even Presidents without the most traditional Christian beliefs, called on God in their speeches, and even called for times of fasting and prayer for the nation.
And? That doesn't prove anything Faith. True Or False. A man who prays is a Christian. It is a sad fact that in this country it is nearly impossible to be elected to high office without professing your faith as a Christian. You of all people should know that doesn't make it so. And for every one of their speeches and prayers before congress, there are those IMPORTANT times when they came right out and SAID it isn't a Christian nation. They sure did put a bunch of foolish shit into (or left out of for that matter) the Constitution for such strict religious folks.
You find all that contradictory with your nonreligious understanding of the Treaty of Tripoli and the Constitution, because you can only think in terms of religion or nonreligion, you don't have a Christian culture in mind that was shot through with Christian principles that permeated every aspect of the thinking in those days.
You then agree that those days were more "Christian" and so more pure correct? Because it is my understanding of the times that they were anything but the sunny rose garden you seem to think it was.. But I digress. Doesn't matter. The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that you are incorrect. I know you don't want it to be so, but you are.
It was necessary but it may be a big part of the reason why the nation has lost its original Christian character since only a Christian with a strong historical sense -- and there are few of us around unfortunately -- would understand what the founders meant. But if we made sure all citizens had a good solid education in the founding principles members of other religions could adhere to them without believing in the religion itself.
It may be.. it may be.. yadda yadda yadda. Documents written by the very hands of the men you claim to admire say the exact opposite of what you are saying. Period. It doesn't take special Christian reading powers to understand that.
Actually, mine don't but yours do.
I know you are but what am I. I know you are but what am I. I know you are but what am I. Infinity.
The Treaty of Tripoli clearly states that the United States is not founded on Christianity. Period. You keep saying that it does. You are wrong. You keep saying we need special reading powers to understand that. We don't. You want us to refer to private personal letters as proof that they really meant for the country to be Christian instead of an ACTUAL government document signed by them and ratified by congress saying the exact opposite. Perhaps that kind of thinking is what you are used to, but I prefer to deal with facts. They could have very well been the most Christian men in existence and that would not change the fact that they did not want this country to be a Christian nation, as you so desire. It may weaken your faith in those men, but it makes them that much greater in my eyes.
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