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Author Topic:   Easy proof for Inteligent Design
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 97 of 213 (556203)
04-18-2010 2:47 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by MrQ
04-17-2010 3:26 PM


Re: Explaining reality
An non-designed universe to me would be a random mix of energy and mass.
In the same way that the non-designed Mandelbrot Set is a just a random mixed up curve in the complex plane?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by MrQ, posted 04-17-2010 3:26 PM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 3:09 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 100 of 213 (556207)
04-18-2010 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by MrQ
04-18-2010 3:09 AM


Re: Explaining reality
Mandelbrot Set is not random enough.
It is not random at all!!! That is the whole point. It is a perfect example of extreme order and complexity without design.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 3:09 AM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 3:32 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 103 of 213 (556210)
04-18-2010 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by MrQ
04-18-2010 3:32 AM


Re: Explaining reality
No you are wrong!
Really?
It only shows that how a small amount of disorder that is repeated in a loop can create a bigger more complex order.
What disorder?
But all these are again based on necessary truths.
It is mathematics. The Universe itself shows itself to be inherently mathematical. That is not by design. It is the nature of reality. It is the designed universe that would make little sense and appear to be random in nature, unless the designer went out of its way to make such as universe look undesigned.
A consistent necessary universe gives rise to an Earth with lifeforms such as tetrapods, but no hexapods such as dragons, pegasi, centaurs and angels. A designed universe has no such restrictions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 3:32 AM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 4:08 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 105 of 213 (556212)
04-18-2010 4:23 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by MrQ
04-18-2010 4:08 AM


Re: Explaining reality
Now if I want to interpret your question, in essence you are saying that if there was a mind behind this why there are also so much disorder is going on?!
No. The exact opposite. If there was a mind, I would expect more disorder. The order I see reveals no choice, no input, and so I can only conclude no design. If you can show me dragons (of the four legs, two wings variety) I will agree that there is a designer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 4:08 AM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 5:45 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 107 of 213 (556217)
04-18-2010 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by MrQ
04-18-2010 5:45 AM


Re: Explaining reality
No, I see no disorder at all. All I see is a reality built of mathematical relationships. There is no room for disorder, for choice, for "designer input". Just as with the Mandlebrot Set. There is huge variety, but it all must be consistent. So there is no room for any god to play with its creation.
The fact that we have both order as well as disorder by itself invigorates the idea of design as both are required if you want to achieve anything usable.
You may think this "invigorates" the idea of design, and that is fine. But this does not begin to make even evidence, never mind "proof".
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 5:45 AM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 6:10 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 110 of 213 (556223)
04-18-2010 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by MrQ
04-18-2010 6:10 AM


Re: Explaining reality
1- Quantum mechanics which I agree still some scientist don't count them as random but I guess the majority agree that there is an inherent deep probabilistic character to quantum events.
This is in no way disorder - quite the opposite. QM is completely deterministic, and the probablistic features precisely follow the associated probability distributions. Furthermore, it is quite possible (and I think probable) that even this probablistic nature is a secondary effect. Given sufficient measuring apparatus and time, it would be possible to eliminate all but the most minor deistic tinkering.
2- Freewill which is more controversial. But we have strong feeling for it.
Feeling count for nothing - in fact, given past history, feelings tend to work opposite to reality.
If you want to categorize that as an illusion then we resort to categorize everything as illusion.
Nonsense. There is no mechanism known in science that can give rise to true "freewill", and all evidence so far suggests that "freewill" is merely a secondary effect of brain function. Why should such unambiguous reasoning lead anyone to suggest that "everything is illusion" as being a sensible conclusion?

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 Message 108 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 6:10 AM MrQ has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 128 of 213 (556323)
04-19-2010 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by MrQ
04-18-2010 1:34 PM


Re: Necessary Truths
Well many people claimed that there is a hidden variable and suggested loads of experiments.
I am not talking about hidden variables.
Probability distributions are designed
No, the probability distributions are an output of the theory - in no way are they designed.
That's why they give the illusion that quantum world is also deterministic. But in fact it is not.
Perhaps you can show me which part of wave-function evolution is not deterministic? Don't be afraid of going technical, I used to teach this stuff
Then why would you even bother to participate in discussion?! Are we a bunch of robots just passing time here?!
Yes, of course. And why? Because I get pleasure from it - robot or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by MrQ, posted 04-18-2010 1:34 PM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by MrQ, posted 04-19-2010 8:50 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 134 of 213 (556354)
04-19-2010 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by MrQ
04-19-2010 8:50 AM


Re: Necessary Truths
The fact that position vs time is shown as probability distribution rather than one exact point is not enough?
Wave-functions don't have a position
You are asking the wrong questions - don't expect classical answers when the Universe is quantum.
Do you also deny intuition as well?
Deny it? It's there all the time. But it is "simply" brain function.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by MrQ, posted 04-19-2010 8:50 AM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by MrQ, posted 04-19-2010 5:56 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 153 of 213 (556761)
04-20-2010 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by MrQ
04-19-2010 5:56 PM


Re: Necessary Truths
You create quantum mechanics based on probabilistic models and then claim that this is the way it is.
Incorrect and irrelevent - I suggest you study the development of quantum theory before continuing this line of reasoning. Layman knowledge will only tie you in knots, as we are seeing.
Look, you are wandering far from your point, which still stands refuted - fundemental phsyics has shown us that reality follows a mathemtical order that leaves no room for design or choice, yet is so vast and hypothetically allows an infinitude of domains with varying physics that just about any plausible outcome will be realised at some point within the global parameter space. We see no room, nor need for any designer. That does not mean that there is no designer. But then it is not us, rather you, that is claiming a "proof". Are you ready to retract your claim?
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by MrQ, posted 04-19-2010 5:56 PM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by MrQ, posted 04-21-2010 4:47 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3673 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 164 of 213 (556810)
04-21-2010 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by MrQ
04-21-2010 4:47 AM


Re: Necessary Truths
As I said this is the nature of probability models that gives pseudo-deterministic results on something that is random. In fact what you are claiming here is that probability models are not related to random variables and everything is deterministic.
As I have stated, you really do not know enough about this subject to continue in this vein - the above nonsense is clear evidence of this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by MrQ, posted 04-21-2010 4:47 AM MrQ has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by MrQ, posted 04-21-2010 8:40 AM cavediver has not replied

  
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