How did Adam and Eve know good from evil?

Peg writes:

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Mans view is not Gods view

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That's not what the Bible says. We've eaten from the tree of knowledge and became as gods. The only thing that has prevented our complete apotheosis is the failure to eat from the tree of life before we were kicked out.

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Inequality is a man-made phenomenon.

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So the devil is a man?And funny, I recall god giving humans dominion over animals.And, in fact, we find god panicking over the actions of humans again with the tower of Babylon and deliberately, purposefully, and consciously dividing them.And this doesn't even begin to deal with the orders from god to take slaves (which not even Jesus condemned).It would seem that inequality is a god-made phenomenon.

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Is that because of God? No, you know its not.

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But man is made in the image of god. There is nothing we have done that god hasn't already.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

Funny, though, that so many of those "many people" describe themselves as fundamentalist or evangelical Christians....

Nope. If death had not yet "entered the world," she could not have known what it was.

i dont know where you get that idea from...God asked them why they had covered themselves and he also asked them 'who told you that you were naked?'God did not view their nakedness as sin, he created them in that condition and when he did, he said it was very good.So your idea that their nakedness was sinful is just wrong and completely out of harmony with what is actually written. then you are making the same mistake that she made. You are taking the word of the devil over the word of God the creator.The apostle Paul explained that Eve had been 'thoroughly decieved' by the serpent...IOW, what he told her was false, a lie. Yes they became like God, but in what sense?it was only in the sense that, like God, they now began to decide for themselves what was good and bad. Her understanding of what is good and evil came down to what Gods view of good and evil was. This is when her dependence on God should have directed her to seek the answer from the one who made the decision as to what was good and what was bad. But rather then seek direction from her father, she went ahead on her own and made a really bad decision...one that led to her death.Eating from the tree was of no benefit to her therefore independence from God was of no benefit to her.

Peg responds to me:

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Remember, Adam and Eve were already sinning. They were naked.

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i dont know where you get that idea from

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From the text. You have actually read the text, yes? Ergo, running around naked is a sin.

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God asked them why they had covered themselves and he also asked them 'who told you that you were naked?'

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Precisely: They ate from the tree of knowledge and became as gods, knowing good and evil, and their very first thought is shame over being naked. Nobody told them: They gained that knowledge from eating from the tree of knowledge. Your claim that the tree of knowledge didn't actually give them anything new is trivially shown to be false. The text directly says the opposite.They didn't realize they were naked before they ate from the tree of knowledge. No, not because they were stupid but rather because they didn't understand good and evil. Only after they ate from the tree, and without anybody telling them anything, they realized that they were naked and understood the sin of being naked.

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God did not view their nakedness as sin

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That's not what the Bible says. You have actually read the Bible, yes? Before we are even told that they had eaten from the tree, we are given a specific and direct example of the fact that Adam and Eve were innocent (not stupid) by pointing out that they were sinning and yet not ashamed.And even more evidence that you haven't actually read the very text you claim as your holy book, you seem to have forgotten that god gives them clothes: Why would God bother giving them clothes if he didn't think there was a problem with being naked?

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So your idea that their nakedness was sinful is just wrong and completely out of harmony with what is actually written.

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Except the text directly contradicts you: Why would you ignore this direct statement?

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then you are making the same mistake that she made. You are taking the word of the devil over the word of God the creator.

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And once again, you miss the point.Ignoring the fact that the serpent is NOT the devil (for there is no such thing as the devil in Judaism and you can only understand Genesis in the context of Judaism as it was written by Jews for Jews and only makes sense in a Jewish context), you have to explain why it is that Eve is supposed to understand why god is good when she doesn't understand good and evil. She hasn't eaten from the tree of knowledge yet. Therefore, when presented with a choice between good and evil, how is she supposed to know to choose good? She doesn't know what good is.And I see you have avoided the direct question I politely asked you to answer:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?Which do you choose? Why are you hesitating? You are not stupid. You understand the consequences, so why have you refused to answer?

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You are taking the word of the devil over the word of God the creator.

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Where is this "devil" character you mention? There is no devil to be found in Genesis. This is not surprising because there is no such thing as the devil in Judaism. You weren't trying to impose a Christian vision upon a Jewish text, were you?So ignoring your primary failure of analysis, let's move onto the more fundamental problem: The serpent was right and god was wrong. God said that if they were to eat from the tree of knowledge, they would be physically dead before the sun set. The serpent said that if they were to eat from the tree of knowledge, they would become as gods, knowing good and evil.Well, they ate from the tree of knowledge and they did not die. Instead, they became as gods, knowing good and evil. Therefore, by plain inspection, we find that god was wrong and the serpent (NOT the devil for there is no such thing as the devil in Judaism) was right.Now, answer my question, please:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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The apostle Paul explained that Eve had been 'thoroughly decieved' by the serpent

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Except she wasn't. She was told the truth. God said she would die. The serpent (NOT the devil for there is no such thing as the devil in Judaism) said they would become as gods, knowing good and evil: You have to read the text in order to understand it, Peg. You cannot remain innocent. You have to eat from the tree of knowlege in order to understand.Now, answer my question, please:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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IOW, what he told her was false, a lie. Yes they became like God, but in what sense?

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In the sense of knowing good and evil. The text directly says so. You did read the text, yes? Are you saying god was lying in Genesis 3:22 when he said that Adam and Eve became as gods, knowing good and evil?So it would seem that Paul got it completely backwards. Eve wasn't deceived at all. She was told the utter truth. She didn't understand that, since she hadn't eaten from the tree of knowledge yet, but she chose truth over a lie.Now, answer my question, please:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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it was only in the sense that, like God, they now began to decide for themselves what was good and bad.

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Incorrect. They weren't deciding for themselves. They were deciding as gods. Now, answer my question, please:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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Her understanding of what is good and evil came down to what Gods view of good and evil was.

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You realize that you just contradicted yourself, yes? First, you were saying that she "decided for herself what was good and bad." Now you're saying that she understood god's opinion of good and evil. Which is it?And again, you miss the point: She hasn't eaten from the tree yet and thus has no idea what good and evil are. Therefore, how is she supposed to know that god is good when she doesn't know what "good" is?Beetaratagang or clerendipity?Which do you choose? Why is it you are refusing to answer? That is really the only question I want you to answer. How many times am I going to have to ask you this question before you answer?

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This is when her dependence on God should have directed her to seek the answer from the one who made the decision as to what was good and what was bad.

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Why? How on earth is she supposed to know that when she doesn't know what good and evil are? She hasn't eaten from the tree yet and thus is still innocent. She's not stupid, but she doesn't understand what good and evil are. We know this because she's running around naked and is not ashamed. So when she is given a choice between good and evil, how is she supposed to know to choose good when she doesn't know what good is?Beetaratagang or clerendipity? How many times do I have to ask you before you answer?

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But rather then seek direction from her father, she went ahead on her own and made a really bad decision...one that led to her death.

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Huh? She was going to die anyway. That's what the tree of life was about. Eve wasn't immortal.But you still haven't explained how it was she was supposed to know to follow god when she was innocent and therefore didn't know what good and evil were. How does one choose good when you don't know what good is?Beetaratagang or clerendipity? Why have you still not answered?

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Eating from the tree was of no benefit to her therefore independence from God was of no benefit to her.

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But this has nothing to do with independence. It has to do with knowledge.And you still completely miss the point: How is it Eve could have sinned when she was innocent and didn't know what sin was? After all, she was running around naked and god let it slide...which is only appropriate because she was innocent and didn't understand what she was doing. Every parent knows this. If you put a delicate Ming vase on a rickety pedestal and then introduce a toddler, nobody is surprised to eventually hear a crash followed by crying no matter how many times you tell the kid, "Don't touch!" It isn't the kid's fault. He doesn't know any better. He's innocent and doesn't understand what you mean. If you don't want the kid touching the vase, you put it out of reach of the kid.Now, please answer my question:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?You are in precisely the same position as Eve: You are faced with a choice between eternal bliss and eternal damnation. Which do you choose? How many times do I need to ask you this before you answer? You're not stupid. Why are you hesitating?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

Show me where the text says that Gods view was that their nakedness...the nakedness he made them in and called good, was a sin. or they began to decide for themselves what was good and bad and they viewed their nakedness as something bad show me the text that says God viewed their nakedness as a sin. why not give them clothes in the first place?Seriously, your arguments are off the wall.

Boy, you have been asking that question for a long time. I'll take clerendipity. What do I win?The interesting thing is that Eve didn't just blindly go for the apple. She made a reasoned decision based on what she knew.

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Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it.
-- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion

Peg still avoids the question. How very telling:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

Peg responds to me:

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Show me where the text says that Gods view was that their nakedness...the nakedness he made them in and called good, was a sin.

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I already did. Read my post and you'll see it. Look for the word "ashamed."Now, answer my question, please:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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or they began to decide for themselves what was good and bad and they viewed their nakedness as something bad

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Except the text doesn't say this. Instead, it says that they became as gods, knowing good and evil. Instead, it says that god realized that they now understood their sin. Instead, it says that god made them clothes.I gave you the verses. You did read my post before responding, yes?Now, answer my question, please:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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show me the text that says God viewed their nakedness as a sin.

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I already did. Read my post and you'll see it. Look for the word "ashamed."Now, answer my question, please:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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why not give them clothes in the first place?

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Because they were innocent and thus didn't know good from evil. What would be the point? Suppose they forgot to put on clothes? Why would it matter since they don't understand why clothes are required? How can you impress upon someone that it is important to put on clothes when they are incapable of understanding why it is "bad" not to do so? They don't know what "bad" is.Now, answer my question, please:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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Seriously, your arguments are off the wall.

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Says the woman who has avoided a very simple question literally for years:Beetaratagang or clerendipity?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

It doesn't state anything like that. We therefore have to look at the story in its context. It states, in no uncertain terms, that the tree was of the knowledge of good and evil, and if they ate of it, they would then know what is good and what is evil.Therefore telling them not to eat of the fruit before they could comprehend the ramifications is a lesson in futility. To make matters infinitely worse, God grants the serpent unlimited access to the world's most naive human beings.It was a set up from the start.

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"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston

but who was ashamed??? God or Adam and Eve? i wont answer it because its based on the 'assumption' that A&E had no idea what they were doing. The account plainly tells us that they did know the consequences of eating from the tree. They knew what would happen. Ok, lets reason on it. The only God they knew was the one who made the rules. If they were to become like him, then they would also have to make the rules.So this new found knowledge was their formulation of rules. It was what they considered good and bad. Previously God told them what was good and bad according to the standards that he had set, but now the change comes when they become 'like' him in that they now make the rules.This is independence from Gods way of thinking...that is all it is. You are assuming that nakedness is bad. God made them naked and did not view it as bad and this is why they did not initially view it as bad. They viewed their bodies in the way God viewed them...perfect and innocent because they were dependent on God for the knowledge of good and bad. They knew it would be bad to eat from the tree, but they new it was perfectly innocent to be naked. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

In view of Christianity Adam and Eve cannot sin by their own will. There must be externalities for Adam and Eve to lead them to sin — in this case the snake/devil. Jews would probably say they had it in them already since the devil is more like an inner thing human being have. It might still be called an externality though.
If above statement is, more or less, correct it is because of God’s creation of the snake that is the reason why Adam and Eve sinned by eating of the fruit. It is not like they wanted to sin, but it happened since they were nave and incapable to understand how badly their action would be. After all, they had no idea of right and wrong so how can God blame them?

How could they know what was right or wrong if they did not eat from the tree yet? In order to comprehend the end result they would have to know good and evil. No matter what they were told, anything before eating from the tree, they would not understand the consenquences.

Peg - I repeat: according to your Holy Book, death didn't yet exist when Eve picked the fruit. "You will surely die" would have meant as much to them as "you will surely alkammafrazzit" means to you.
now answer rrhain, already. Edited by Coragyps, : No reason given.

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

because up to that point, they had accepted Gods knowledge of right and wrong. God was the law maker, he was the one who decided what is good and bad and they were completely dependent on him. They were not independent prior therefore they did not think for themselves or decide for themselves....they relied completely on God for information.God had told them eating the from the tree would be bad and they accepted that and refrained from eating. You can see that from when the snake says to Eve "is it really so that God said you must not eat from it"