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Author Topic:   Health care reform almost at the finish line... correction: it's finished
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 16 of 174 (550802)
03-18-2010 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Rahvin
03-18-2010 11:39 AM


Re: Educated decisions on health reform
Just as a form of comparison - the Canada Health Care Act,which established 100%, universal, single-payer health care in Canada in a system which has been functioning very well without bankrupting that nation...
...was 14 whole pages long. Fourteen. Around 1% of the length of the US bill.
Just saying. I'm not entirely sure we need to have a bill that's so long and complicated, when others have manage to achieve the same goals (reigning in health care costs and ensuring everyone can be covered without bankrupting the nation) without a bill so long and complicated.
The difference here is that the US bill is trying to prop up a system that is inherently flawed. We are essentially allowing corporations to erect a wall between people and health care, not only allowing it, but now we are going to subsidize it. I guess it takes 1,000 pages to fool people into thinking that buying health insurance is the same as buying health care. Last I checked, no one suddenly became healthier the second they mailed off a check to an insurance company.

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Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 17 of 174 (550804)
03-18-2010 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Jack
03-18-2010 11:50 AM


Re: Basically
The US also has some of the most obese people in the world.
Donna Simpson: woman who wants to be world's fattest

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 18 of 174 (550806)
03-18-2010 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taz
03-17-2010 11:16 PM


My thoughts...
So - here is a quick summary of the major points of the bill.
1) everyone will be forced to be insured, whether from an employer or purchasing it themselves. However, the deadline is 2014. The penalty for not being covered by that date is $750, or 2% of your total income, whichever is greater. Exemptions will be made for the extremely poor based on the poverty line.
This is in effect a giant handout to the insurance companies, but at the same time it's necessary to reign in costs. Face it - health care has to be paid for, either through a tax increase or having everyone pay for it themselves. Personally, I;d rather just pay what I currently do in premiums and copays to the government in return for a health care card that lets me go to any hospital and get care without worrying over money at all like what Canada has, but this is basically an ultra-decentralized health care model.
Biggest downside to those already covered? We'll still have to worry about copays and all the other nonsense that comes with health insurance, so once again people will put off going to the doctor even while covered because they can;t afford $30 for the visit and another $30 for every medication prescribed on top of their monthly premium.
Possible upside? Universal buy-in should lower overall premium costs by increasing the risk pool. This is only a possibility though - the insurance companies could just sit back and rake in the profits of a better risk pool for them without lowering costs.
Worst downside? Calibrating exemptions by the poverty line. Let's face it - "poverty" isn't the same in every state, and when you're just above the limit of an exemption, you're going to be in the uncomfortable position of possibly not being able to afford insurance, but not being eligible for the exemption. It's not unlike Welfare or unemployment insurance, where there will actually be a downside to improving your situation within a small range of income. Specifically, if you make between 100% and 400% above the poverty level, you'll get "credits," basically a government subsidy to help pay for coverage. At the lowest income levels, you'll likely just get free care from the government. It's not perfect, but it looks good.
2) Minimum benefits, and a consumer protection system. This is necessary. Our current system allows companies to make exceptions in coverage, and this will hopefully close those gaps so that no matter what illness or injury befalls you, you won't be alone. There will be no more $250,000 lifetime limits on total coverage (which means anyone with cancer, HIV, or any other serious illness will be safe, where currently they're screwed after a certain amount of time). No more "pre-existing conditions" exceptions, which is absolutely necessary.
This is the good stuff, frankly. Right now we don't just have a problem where people aren't paying for coverage, or even that they aren't able to pay for coverage - right now, we have a system where people can simply be denied coverage regardless of ability or willingness to pay just because they're already sick. This closes that loophole...but I don't know what the policy is on how much the insurance companies can charge someone with a serious illness. This is pretty ineffectual if they are allowed to increase premiums by 500% for the people who need coverage the most.
3) No public option...but there is a state based "insurance exchange" for those not already covered by an employer.
Possibly good. Pooling resources and establishing a highly regulated market lets the people dictate their own coverage to a degree. TO participate in the pools (which will likely be the only plans used by individuals except the ultra-rich), the insurance company will be forced to use most of their premiums on actual coverage (the article says around 80%). You can't participate in the pools if you already get insurance from an employer, but that's not such a big deal. We could even hit the jackpot with the ability for the pools to negotiate lower drug costs and other such concessions. An individual has no position for bargaining, but a large pool of consumers has the ability to make demands.
4) Medicare efficiency increases.
That's nice. Good for the budget. Specifically rules out rationaing of care for the elderly - so none of Palin's absurd "death panels" here.
5) Employers with more than 50 employees provide coverage or pay a fine of $750 per employee. Less than 50 employees and they don;t need to provide coverage. They'll also get a tax credit (beginning at up to 35% of the money spent on coverage, up to 50% in 2014). It's a reasonable incentive, a good carrot and a reasonable stick. Small employers would also be able to join together to purchase combined plans, meaning even the small businesses can group together and form a pool large enough to actually negotiate rates with the insurance companies.
I'd say that's very reasonable for small employers, and it should help cover more people for less. Thumbs up.
6) Medicaid expansion. Medicaid will cover all individuals under 65 who make less than 133% of the poverty level. Basically, for a family of three, that means that you have to make less than $24,000 yearly to qualify.
That's definitely a boost for the poorest Americans, because if you're making that little money in most places in the country, you're in serious trouble.
7) Funding. For plans costing $8500 for individuals or $23,000 for families, you'll pay a hefty 40% extra tax on any premiums over that amount. There are also taxes on pharmaceutical companies, medical suppliers, and the insurers themselves. Overall projection? Reduce the deficit by around $100 billion in teh first 10 years, and over $700 billion for the ten years after that. Note - that's not a cost, that's a savings. That's a pretty sweet deal if it goes as planned.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My overall opinion? Mixed feelings. It's a bandaid on what I think is a compeltely broken system...but then, it is a pretty good bandaid.
I think it's far more complicated than necessary. I think that it doesn't address a single thing in the health care industry itself with how they determine costs and fees. I think that,. just like fire or police protection, health care coverage doesn't work well with a "market-driven" model because of the inherent lack of choice. You can't choose to simply not call the fire department because you can't afford it; in the same way, you can't choose to just ignore appendicitis or cancer or HIV or a broken leg. Prices in teh health care industry are already not tied to supply and demand, and most of us get out insurance through our employers - meaning we don't get to choose among competing insurers, either. Just like there are some things that the private sector excels at, there are also things that it does not, and where public control is required. We already use public funding and regulation for fire, police, roads, etc. Health care is one of those public welfare necessities - it's the reason every other developed nation in teh world already has a universal coverage plan.
I don't think it lowers costs as much as it could. I say this only because of how much more Americans spend per capita on coverage (without even covering everybody, it gets far worse if you only include those actually covered in that number) than anyone else, without an increase in quality of care (with the exception of the wealthy who can solve their problems with money, we actually get less quality of care than other nations see). I think that once again we're trying to do it "the American way" rather than looking at already-established successful examples in other countries, including ones that are extremely similar to the US.
My ideal would be the Canadian system - single payer, no premiums or copays, just show your card and you're good. To those who complain about waiting lists, I challenge them to try to get an MRI done today. Or even see their personal physician in a metropolitan area without waiting. The fact is, every system has waiting lists simply because there are (gasp!) more patients than doctors and facilities. By and large, this is not a bad thing, because most health care needs are not urgent. And the issues we do have where people with severe injuries are made to wait are caused by overloaded emergency rooms - which themselves are caused by people without coverage who have no other choice but the ER for every concern. Universal coverage with no patient-level concerns over payment allows the system to triage according to available resources and urgency of need, like it should be, and increases the overall quality of care for everyone.
I could be said to "oppose" this bill because it's quite obviously not even close to what I want. But I do think it will improve over the system we have now.
It's just that you can be better than shit, and still be crap.

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 Message 1 by Taz, posted 03-17-2010 11:16 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2441 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 19 of 174 (550808)
03-18-2010 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Taz
03-18-2010 11:43 AM


Re: Basically
Recently, ESPN news accidently posted misinformation that the Obama Administration wants to ban private fishing.
My store manager knows I'm a fishing nut (as is he) and asked me discreetly and in an ominous tone if I'd 'heard of Obama's plans to ban fishing?' I hadn't, gave a little snort, waited for the punch line, and after an uncomfortable moment discovered that he was a bit of a closet wingnut. I sort of shuffled my feet, slipped away and proceeded to debunk all of it in the span of 3 minutes online. Why, why, why? Why is it that some normally reasonable people are so quick to make themselves into the village idiot when it comes to anything anti-Obabma, instead of spending a couple minutes researching? Instead, they remain ignorant, open their mouths and let shit fall right out. Unreal.
As for health care, I can say from inside this industry that it is rotten to the core. I've done a little research, but I don't think a little research will cut it unfortunately, as hyro has alluded.
But from what I can see, since investment and desire to engage in risk is what 1. drives the economy and is 2. dependent upon comfort level, fixing this healthcare situation can't help but serve to increase economic development, and decrease the deficit in turn. But that's an admittedly big-picture view... I'll be following this thread with great interest--hopefully some folks who actually have time to research some of this can weigh in and educate those of us who don't.
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 03-18-2010 11:43 AM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Taz, posted 03-18-2010 2:31 PM Apothecus has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 20 of 174 (550824)
03-18-2010 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Apothecus
03-18-2010 1:00 PM


Re: Basically
Apothecus writes:
My store manager knows I'm a fishing nut (as is he) and asked me discreetly and in an ominous tone if I'd 'heard of Obama's plans to ban fishing?' I hadn't, gave a little snort, waited for the punch line, and after an uncomfortable moment discovered that he was a bit of a closet wingnut. I sort of shuffled my feet, slipped away and proceeded to debunk all of it in the span of 3 minutes online.
Did you let him have it? The best way to cure ignorance is to make them understand humiliation. If you let them go easy, yes you will get a better result. But at the same time, they will come right back to you with something nuttier. Buzsaw is living proof of this.

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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 21 of 174 (550841)
03-18-2010 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Rahvin
03-18-2010 12:44 PM


Re: My thoughts...
1) everyone will be forced to be insured, whether from an employer or purchasing it themselves. However, the deadline is 2014. The penalty for not being covered by that date is $750, or 2% of your total income, whichever is greater. Exemptions will be made for the extremely poor based on the poverty line.
A one time fine? If so, what good is that? If not, if it is a monthly fine or any sort of recurring fine, how do they expect people to pay it if they can't afford insurance? I can't see any logic in forcing people to be insured if the insurance rates stay as expensive as they are.
Personally, I;d rather just pay what I currently do in premiums and copays to the government in return for a health care card that lets me go to any hospital and get care without worrying over money at all like what Canada has, but this is basically an ultra-decentralized health care model.
That would be great, and I agree. however, there are plenty of people that are unable to get company insurance (me). So now again, we are forced to buy private insurance at outrageous prices.
Possible upside? Universal buy-in should lower overall premium costs by increasing the risk pool. This is only a possibility though - the insurance companies could just sit back and rake in the profits of a better risk pool for them without lowering costs.
And that, I'm afraid, is exactly what would happen. Sure, Obama says he is going to try and reign in the insurance companies about their premiums, but I doubt it.
3) No public option...but there is a state based "insurance exchange" for those not already covered by an employer.
Are state run programs going to be shut down? Badgercare (and Badgercare plus) in Wisconsin may not be the best, but it is there and at least all kids are guaranteed coverage. My g/f and both her kids get everything covered absolutely free. Connecticut's Charter Oak state run insurance plan is awesome (which makes it all the more funny for Lieberman to be against universal insurance).
4) Medicare efficiency increases.
I've been reading about numerous states (michigan for starters) where many places are no longer accepting Medicare. Seattle's Walgreens are not accepting Medicare for prescriptions.
5) Employers with more than 50 employees provide coverage or pay a fine of $750 per employee. Less than 50 employees and they don;t need to provide coverage. They'll also get a tax credit (beginning at up to 35% of the money spent on coverage, up to 50% in 2014). It's a reasonable incentive, a good carrot and a reasonable stick. Small employers would also be able to join together to purchase combined plans, meaning even the small businesses can group together and form a pool large enough to actually negotiate rates with the insurance companies.
I like this as well.
7) Funding. For plans costing $8500 for individuals or $23,000 for families.
WHAT? That's close to $2,000 a MONTH!! I can't afford that.
Who can? It still seems as though health insurance is something for the elite, not the working class.
All in all, if this is what the bill is, it still leaves alot to be answered and wanted. I really can't stress enough the importance of simply making it more affordable. THAT in and of itself should have been the goal.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2010 12:44 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3322 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 22 of 174 (550843)
03-18-2010 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by hooah212002
03-18-2010 6:39 PM


Re: My thoughts...
Did you really expect anything better given that republicans have been nothing but obstructionists?

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 23 of 174 (550844)
03-18-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
03-18-2010 6:44 PM


Re: My thoughts...
Did you really expect anything better given that republicans have been nothing but obstructionists?
Some of the Dems have been just as bad, or worse. Don't forget the Filibuster garbage - and horse trading over important issues has been going all around, just because they could.
Let's face it - a single payer option was a non-starter in our Congress...from both sides. Only the really liberal Dems would support that.
It's definitely not what I want, but it's about the best I expected. We're basically just treating the symptoms rather than the disease by trying to force a private industry to function as a public service.
Let's face it: at the end of the day, an insurance company has only one incentive, and that's to make money. They make money by receiving the most premiums possible while paying out the fewest benefits. The healthcare industry, for all of the good intentions of those who work in it, is inherently flawed in that its basic metric is profit rather than the health and welfare of those it serves.
I'm not against profit - I like making money as much as the next guy. But liek I said earlier, a profit-driven private industry does not function well in certain roles, just as public services don't work for everything.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 24 of 174 (550845)
03-18-2010 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
03-18-2010 6:44 PM


Re: My thoughts...
I actually thought it would be worse. However, until we can get some sort of competition for these big insurance companies (*example: every state has a solid public plan), we won't get anything better.
*I'm just throwing this out there because I see there ARE states with solid programs. i know not what the full ramifications costwise are for such programs. Take it with a grain of salt.

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 03-18-2010 6:44 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2010 7:10 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 25 of 174 (550846)
03-18-2010 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by hooah212002
03-18-2010 7:06 PM


Re: My thoughts...
Supposedly the state programs are not being affected. Realistically,I;d expect them to be a large part of whaever "public insurance pools" are set up. But the system in any given state will be determined locally; this bill just sets the big-picture requirements for every healthcare provider, and mandates that everyone pay into the system.
Seriously - taxes would have been more efficient than just requiring everyone to pay an insurance company, and would let the government deal with regulation much more directly. But no, we have to be obsessed with "the market" and leave it to private businesses even in an industry where market forces are raped sideways with a rusty hacksaw...

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 Message 24 by hooah212002, posted 03-18-2010 7:06 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 03-18-2010 7:19 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2441 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 26 of 174 (550847)
03-18-2010 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taz
03-18-2010 2:31 PM


Re: Basically
Did you let him have it?
In a normal situation, I'd have done just that. Except letting my direct superior know I think he's a loon does not a pleasant workplace make. I have plans to tactfully ask him how the fishing ban's shaking out and watch the stumbling backpedal dance.
I do agree with the Buz comment, though...
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 832 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 27 of 174 (550848)
03-18-2010 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Rahvin
03-18-2010 7:10 PM


Re: My thoughts...
Seriously - taxes would have been more efficient than just requiring everyone to pay an insurance company, and would let the government deal with regulation much more directly.
I mentioned this to our in-house Union electrician. At the time, I didn't know much (much less than I do now thanks to you) and his response was that he liked his plan (it seemed like a good one to me too) so he didn't like the idea of his taxes going up to pay for other people. The same response was had from another conservative I work with.
I somewhat think the same thing (albeit, admittedly i am not knowledgable on the subject enough): we already pay 1/4 of our income to Uncle Sam in taxes, medicare, social security. How much would we have had to raise them to pay for insurance?

"Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Othersfor example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einsteinconsidered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws."-Carl Sagan
"Show me where Christ said "Love thy fellow man, except for the gay ones." Gay people, too, are made in my God's image. I would never worship a homophobic God." -Desmond Tutu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2010 7:10 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2010 7:44 PM hooah212002 has replied
 Message 33 by onifre, posted 03-18-2010 8:36 PM hooah212002 has replied

  
Flyer75
Member (Idle past 2454 days)
Posts: 242
From: Dayton, OH
Joined: 02-15-2010


Message 28 of 174 (550849)
03-18-2010 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Aware Wolf
03-18-2010 9:56 AM


Re: Educated decisions on health reform
Aware Wolf writes:
According to the Congressional Budget Office, the proposed reform will have a positive effect on the deficit.
No it won't. No bill has, in the last 40 years, had a positive effect on the deficit. I dare you to find just one that has. There's a reason for that. These bills never turn out to be what they are supposed to be. Law makers can't forsee future costs of these bills 5 years down the road or what might happen.
And that's why I'm against this bill. Not because it's liberal vs. conservative (although that's "generally" the way it goes, but the GOP really ticked me off during GWB tenure) but because I'm opposed to almost anything that balloons the size and control of the government. To me, it's never a good thing. Now, I do think something needs to be done about health care reform but I would prefer the private sector to fix it (buying health care plans across state lines, HSA's, ect). But even with my solid state/local gov't job, the costs are going up every year for us too.
One thing to ask yourself is this: Congress currently has the greatest health care plan in existence. One, why don't they give that to all of us and two, conversely, are they willing to give that up and take the health care plan that they are about to pass??? I think we know the answers to those questions.
Edited by Flyer75, : No reason given.

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 29 of 174 (550850)
03-18-2010 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by hooah212002
03-18-2010 7:19 PM


Re: My thoughts...
I mentioned this to our in-house Union electrician. At the time, I didn't know much (much less than I do now thanks to you) and his response was that he liked his plan (it seemed like a good one to me too) so he didn't like the idea of his taxes going up to pay for other people. The same response was had from another conservative I work with.
I somewhat think the same thing (albeit, admittedly i am not knowledgable on the subject enough): we already pay 1/4 of our income to Uncle Sam in taxes, medicare, social security. How much would we have had to raise them to pay for insurance?
Except that the point is to stop paying premiums altogether, and pay that money in taxes instead. The net effect to Joe Schmo who gets his insurance from work is financially nil - he's just paying it in taxes and can't opt out any more.
A tax increase does not have to be a cost of living increase if the taxes balance a reduction in private spending.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by hooah212002, posted 03-18-2010 7:19 PM hooah212002 has replied

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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 30 of 174 (550851)
03-18-2010 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Flyer75
03-18-2010 7:35 PM


Re: Educated decisions on health reform
One thing to ask yourself is this: Congress currently has the greatest health care plan in existence. One, why don't they give that to all of us
You're against expanding the defecit and government control, but you propose this, which is in itself government run healthcare that will cost billions.
You realize your positions are directly contradictory, right?
EDIT
and two, conversely, are they willing to give that up and take the health care plan that they are about to pass???
...Did you even read anything about the plan? The Bill does not set up any plan for them to take up. All it does is establish minimum coverage and require all insurers to accept pre-existing conditions. Oh sure, it does other things, too - but it only improves existing plans, it doesn;t take a damned thing away. I'll still be on Blue Cross from my employer, no changes here.
What "plan" are you proposing Congress take in the stead of their current government funded and run plan, exactly, since the health care bill doesn't actually set up an alternative?
I think we know the answers to those questions.
Are you an idiot?
I think I know the answer to that question.
Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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