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Author Topic:   A Modern Day Miracle Man - Establishes the Supernatural Realm
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 54 of 297 (525768)
09-24-2009 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
09-24-2009 12:32 PM


Re: (insert mockery of Cedre here)
I don't want to jump into this discussion, but I'll coment a bit on the HIV tests and things.
The window of 3 to 6 months were you test negative is after infection, not detection. In other words, if I catch AIDS tomorrow, there will be this timespan were no test will detect it, yet I will be able to transmit it to other people. This is the very reason why you have the whole questionnaire when you go and give blood, because there tests aren't 100% because of this time period.
But note that as soon as it becomes 'detectable' in you, than you have passed this window and it will always be detectable. It doesn't fluctuate from positive t negative after that. (Or else doing AIDS tests on blood sample during blood donation would be almost useless)
All this is to say that if you are tested positive at an AIDS test, you can't possibly test negative again, you're done, Unless a miracle, or a very very very very improbable event (I remember this guy down in ontario who was cured of AIDS after he had the flu.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 09-24-2009 12:32 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 2:46 PM slevesque has not replied
 Message 64 by Rahvin, posted 09-24-2009 4:26 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 60 of 297 (525781)
09-24-2009 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Theodoric
09-24-2009 3:09 PM


Re: Re:Thankyou slevesque
I don't think anyone claimed that AIDS tests were 100% sure.
I would be interested in knowing the % of the test used. Because there was a person who had it tested positive four times, would this even be possible if he didn't really have AIDS ?
You also have to keep in mind that any evidence for miracles will be eye-witness accounts and testimonies. And so if I want to invesitigate a particular 'miracle claim' all I will have to work with will be testimonies. To go beyond that, I will have to myself be subject to said 'miracle claim' so to have a personnal experience of it. But this of course, will become only be an eye-witness account for everybody else. It's sort of a viscious circle.
In other words, I find the atheists claims against this sort of miraculous manifestation (I'm talking about miracle claims in general, not this particular one) will always be of the sort: prove it cannot have a naturalistic origin.
This is really like the theist's own version of this claim: prove me God doesn't exist. These are both universal negatives, and so cannot be proven wrong. In other words: both claims are simply used as to protect the pre-existing belief of the person, either be it atheism or theism,

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Theodoric, posted 09-24-2009 3:09 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-24-2009 3:58 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 62 of 297 (525783)
09-24-2009 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by New Cat's Eye
09-24-2009 3:58 PM


Re: Re:Thankyou slevesque
I'm not familiar with this tests and how it can be applied to a miraculous phenomenon.
Would you care to explain ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-24-2009 3:58 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-24-2009 5:45 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 67 of 297 (525851)
09-24-2009 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by New Cat's Eye
09-24-2009 5:45 PM


Re: Re:Thankyou slevesque
WTF ?
Was that serious, like I'm a retard or something ?
A google search will not tell me how a double blinded test can be applied to miracle claims. I DId go on wikipedia to see what it was though, but since I'm not familiar with it, I didn't see how it could be used. THUS THE QUESTION I ASKED.
Presuming I'm a moron will not get the discussion to advance, and if you could read and comprehend the question I asked, it would help also. Because note that I didn't ask what a double blinded test was. I said I wasn't familiar with it and asked how it could be applied to a miraculous phenomenon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-24-2009 5:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-25-2009 8:36 AM slevesque has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 68 of 297 (525853)
09-24-2009 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Rahvin
09-24-2009 4:26 PM


Re: (insert mockery of Cedre here)
HIV tests typically begin with an antibody test. After an antibody test comes up positive, a followup Western Blot test is typically performed (in the US anyway - I have no idea of the testing methods used elsewhere, particularly in the Third World).
An antibody test will always come up as positive after you've been exposed to the virus. The antibodies don't go away.
The Western Blot test measures viral load. This can come up as "undetectable, which simply means no viral particles were found in teh sample,. This doesn't mean a person has been "cured," but it can be interpreted as a "negative" result.
This is probably what happened - a person tested positive on an antibody test, and came up with an undetectable viral load on the Western Blot. It's not uncommon. Once a person is on medication, it's much more common to test as undetectable.
A person can only really be said to be "cured" of HIV if their viral load is still undetectable after a significant amount of time without drug therapy - obviously, that's rather risky to test. But "a few weeks" is nowhere near long enough to verify that a person is HIV-free, as Cedre's proposed.
The point is that "I tested positive, and now I test negative" is both woefully oversimplified as far as what tests are performed, and completely irrelevant if insufficient time has passed. We don;t even know if the individuals in question were taking medication, the tests done initially and after their supposed "cure," the lab that performed the test...
There's a reason the medical community is not endorsing "Faith healing" as a cure for HIV
Yeah that seems like it, although it would be good to know the tests used in Africa.
I'd like to see a source for that.
I know that there are some people who have a genetic resistance to HIV and will test positive on an antibody test (showing that they've definitely been exposed), but will never display a detectable viral load, never show a drop in T-cells, and generally will be like someone exposed to any other disease but didn't get sick.
Made the news here in Canada maybe two years ago, tried to find an article about it. I remember it was a person who was diagnosed with type1 AIDS (or however they rank it, it was still in its initial stages) and then had the flu (or some other thing, I'm not 100% sure) and his doctor realized he didn't have AIDS anymore.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Rahvin, posted 09-24-2009 4:26 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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