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Author Topic:   human tails and the midriff - hiccups, what are the creatonist theories about them?
PaulK
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Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 61 of 79 (520701)
08-23-2009 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by slevesque
08-23-2009 7:39 AM


Re: Honesty
quote:
Here is an evolutionists saying that it is OK to lie if it gets them to believe in evolution. How disgusting is that ?
I find the actual truth of the matter rather less disgusting than your (mis)representation of it above.
Education is not a simple matter of teaching the full exact truth. Jack Cohen and Ian Stewart even describe education as necessarily "lying to children" (see Wikipedia explanation here). And the main point concerned (NOMA - Non-Overlapping MAgisteria) is a philosophical one, that in an ideal world could be left out of the class altogether.
If you read the NYT article that the story is based on you will see that the teacher is making some compromises in the details to get across a broadly accurate picture - against considerable resistance. He does not say that he is out to get the kids to simply believe in evolution but to try to get them educated.
Campbell in class:
"...I don’t expect you to ‘believe’ the scientific explanation of evolution that we’re going to talk about over the next few weeks.
But I do, he added, expect you to understand it.
And the response he gets from one pupil when he sets a test:
I refuse to answer, Bryce wrote. I don’t believe in this.
Do you really think it is so bad to gloss over the details of the interaction between science and religion if it gets kids to actually provide answers to test papers ?
quote:
Of course, the point is that generalisations are rarely good. CMI is a serious creationist organization which takes much care in not perpetrating false claims.
From my memory CMI is simply less bad than some other creationist organisations. Untruthfulness is solidly embedded in creationism from people like Kent Hovind and Clifford Burdick all the way through to the Discovery Institute.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by slevesque, posted 08-23-2009 7:39 AM slevesque has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 69 of 79 (521484)
08-27-2009 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by slevesque
08-27-2009 2:51 PM


Re: Honesty
quote:
As Theodoric said, D.r Woodside unfortunatly is dead. But you have to take into account that at the time he and Dr. Frair worked together, embryonic recapitulation was still being discussed in embryology, and Haeckel' fraud was not a well-known fact even amongst embryologist. This was all before the coming of your application of evolution to embryology, which is somewhat a greatly downsized version of embryonic recapitulation.
The "modern" recapitulation is based on the ideas of Haeckel's rival von Baer - and it was von Baer's deas that Darwin used.
And of course, such an old quote could be quite untrue if applied to the current situation
quote:
Yes, he did promote something factually inaccurate about biological evolution. The situation is that he was discussing a situation where a teaching in school used the example of the evolution of mickey mouse through history and applied it to Neo-Darwinian evolution. This equivocation, of course, is known to be fallacious by any evolutionists. But Mr. Zikovic defended this approach to evolution in schools saying that although we know it to be false, if it gets the students to believe in evolution, then it is OK to use it.
Of course that is a dubious and uncharitable interpretation on your part.
quote:
Sometimes I feel that I could say the same thing about certain evolutionists. But I can't disagree with you either, since many creationists seem to have a difficulty to let go of an argument that has been demonstrated to be false. However, I do not believe this applies to CMI.
You haven't done much investigation of their website, have you ?
Here is one example:
The Links are Missing Complete with the standard misrepresentation of Steven Jay Gould, that has been refuted so many times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by slevesque, posted 08-27-2009 2:51 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by slevesque, posted 08-27-2009 3:52 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 73 of 79 (521509)
08-27-2009 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by slevesque
08-27-2009 3:52 PM


Re: Honesty
quote:
From Darwin' origin of species:
quote:
the embryonic or larval stages show us, more or less completely, the condition of the progenitor of the whole group in its adult state
This not only looks a lot like the idea Haeckel developped later on, it
Did you read that in context, or just copy it from a creationist source ?
quote:
The point was that because of Haeckel's frauds and the impact it had on embyology, modern embyologist do not readily relate their field with evolution anymore.
So you dismiss my point that the quote cannot be trusted to tell us about the modern situation (being ~50 years old ) by saying that it IS supposed to be about the modern situtuation. Did you really mean to say that ?
quote:
How is my interpretations different from what he did say ??:
Because he doesn't want them to believe inaccuracies - he just finds it better than believing something even further from the truth, Which - as I pointed out - is not that unusual in education.
quote:
Actually, I have been reading their website as much as I have been reading the talkorigins.org site, and I can tell you that the proportion of errors both those sites contain are pretty much proportional, and inside the realm of normal unvoluntary errors done by faillible humans.
I doubt that. but again that doesn't address my point. You boasted that CMI didn't hang on to discredited arguments. It didn't take me long to find a counter-example.
quote:
About the example you came up with, are you suggesting that the lack of transitional fossils is not what inspired ponctuated equilibrium to professor Gould ?
Yes, that is another discredited creationist argument. Eldredge and Gould say that their starting point was Mayr's allopatric model of speciation, which had already become the dominant view in evolutionary science.
Punctuate Equilibria

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by slevesque, posted 08-27-2009 3:52 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by slevesque, posted 09-11-2009 5:13 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 78 of 79 (523654)
09-11-2009 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by slevesque
09-11-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Honesty
quote:
Unfortunately, I do not possess Darwin's origin of species. The quote comes from a creationist source. I you do want to invalidate that quote as being misquoted, you'll have to provide the context and show how Darwin was not meaning that our embryos ressemble our ancestors adult forms.
Like many books old enough to be out of copyright the Origin can be found online. And you should always be very cautious when dealing with using creationists as secondary sources. They often omit important context - or worse. (In fact you should always be cautious using secondary sources - but creationists are among the worst).
You may find the relevant chapter here.
In this case the omission of the start of the sentence is a pretty clear attempt at deliberate misrepresentation.
On the other hand it is highly probable that with many animals the embryonic or larval stages show us, more or less completely, the condition of the progenitor of the whole group in its adult state.
I have italicised the words omitted.
Also Darwin goes on to support this idea, appealing to the work of Fritz Muller
In the great class of the Crustacea, forms wonderfully distinct from each other, namely, suctorial parasites, cirripedes, entomostraca, and even the malacostraca, appear at first as larvae under the nauplius-form; and as these larvae live and feed in the open sea, and are not adapted for any peculiar habits of life, and from other reasons assigned by Fritz Muller it is probable that at some very remote period an independent adult animal, resembling the nauplius, existed, and subsequently produced, along several divergent lines of descent, the above-named great crustacean groups
There is no specific reference to humans in this case, but there is one to mammals in general.
So again it is probable, from what we know of the embryos of mammals, birds, fishes, and reptiles, that these animals are the modified descendants of some ancient progenitor, which was furnished in its adult state with branchiae, a swimbladder, four finlike limbs, and a long tail, all fitted for an aquatic life.
This should make it clear that the qualifications used by Darwin were genuinely meant.
quote:
I've thought about this a bit and I may be wrong, but doesn't the fact that embryology hasn't developped a complete theory relating it to Darwinian evolution (since embryonic recapitulation) speak about the reticence of embryologist to associate their field to the ToE. Principally because of the errors of the past ?
I don't think so. Certainly there is more work than you seem to be aware of. And 10 years ago "evo-devo" was recognised as a field of research in itself (which in itself required the accumulation of sufficient work to justify it).
quote:
I would disagree. Saying to childrens 'things evolve all the time, such as mickey mouse, etc" and then using this fact to present the ToE as fact is not a strategy that should be promoted at school.
Kids aren't idiots, if they are too young to understand the basic mutation+Natural selection concepts, then it is children indoctrination. If they are old enough to understand these two concepts, why not present them to them ?
If you remember the article you know that the teacher was facing a major obstacle - Creationist indoctrination of the children. He had to work hard to stop the kids just shutting down and rejecting what he had to say.
quote:
We will be discussing this counter-example, as to determine in which category it is. Besides, I could just as quickly find and example this kind from talkorigins.org
I very much doubt it. The CMI argument is one that has been known to be false for decades, at the least. And it is a major part of their discussion of evolution. You might find an old and outdated article on talkorigins.org (especially as the site doesn't seem to be actively maintained), but that would not be a true equivalent.
quote:
Of course, this allopatric model of speciation was an integral part of ponctuated equilibrium. But it is also true that it was Eldredge and Gould who proposed that this speciation process would explain the gaps in the fossil record.
Is it ? Where is your evidence ?
quote:
In other words, why did they favor this model of speciation over another and as such developped ponctuated equilibrium ?
Because it was ALREADY the favoured model of speciation when they formulated their theory. They would need a good reason to use some other model !

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by slevesque, posted 09-11-2009 5:13 PM slevesque has not replied

  
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