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Author Topic:   Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 1 of 14 (314261)
05-22-2006 7:19 AM


Or, How the philosophy of Epicureanism founded the modern world.
It is a common assumption amongst believers on this site that Christianity preceded atheism in Western culture and that modern secularism is just a curious anomaly in the long tradition of that culture. In this post I am going to argue that, on the contrary, not only did atheism precede Christianity, but that there is a direct link between the atheistic philosophy of Epicurus and the birth of modern secularism.
(The title of this post, of course, was penned by that self-confessed Epicurean, Thomas Jefferson:
Thomas Jefferson writes:
As you say of yourself, I too am an Epicurian. I consider the genuine (not the imputed) doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which Greece and Rome have left us.
From the Letter to William Short.)
A summary of Epicureanism
Epicurus lived between 341 and 240 BCE, about a generation after Aristotle. He was the founder of a school of philosphy that was distinguished by the following beliefs:
1. That the universe consists of atoms falling through a void, and that all things result from random swerves and collisions of those atoms;
2. That the universe was not created by the gods, and that the gods play no part in human affairs;
3. That knowledge is gained through the senses, rather than solely through the operation of reason;
4. That virtues are not an end in themselves, but are considered good because they are a means to achieving happiness or the avoidance of pain. (Epicurean ethics is a utilitarian ethics)
In these beliefs we can see the origins of three of the main features of modern secular humanism, i.e. Empiricism, Physical Naturalism and Utilitarian Ethics.
Roman Epicureanism
Stoicism and Epicureanism were the two predominant philosophies in pre-Christian Rome, and one of the great works of Latin literature, Lucretius' De Rerum Natura (On The Nature of Things), was effectively a hymn to Epicurean philosophy. After the adoption of Christianity, Epicureanism, for obvious reasons, was repressed.
Modern Epicureanism
Both Nietsche and Marx were influenced by Epicureanism, but the most interesting influence from my point of view is that on the Western liberal tradition. Consider this quote from the Wikipedia article on Epicurus:
Epicurus was one of the first thinkers to develop the notion of justice as a social contract. He defined justice as an agreement "neither to harm nor be harmed." The point of living in a society with laws and punishments is to be protected from harm so that one is free to pursue happiness. Because of this, laws that do not help contribute to promoting human happiness are not just.
This was later picked up by the democratic thinkers of the French Revolution, and others, like John Locke, who wrote that people had a right to "life, liberty, and property." To Locke, one's own body was part of their property, and thus one's right to property would theoretically guarantee safety for their persons, as well as their possessions.
This triad was carried forward into the American freedom movement and Declaration of Independence, by American founding father, Thomas Jefferson, as "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by JavaMan, posted 05-24-2006 11:06 AM JavaMan has not replied
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 05-24-2006 11:50 AM JavaMan has replied
 Message 6 by ikabod, posted 05-25-2006 4:04 AM JavaMan has replied
 Message 12 by U can call me Cookie, posted 05-25-2006 10:42 AM JavaMan has replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 2 of 14 (314864)
05-24-2006 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JavaMan
05-22-2006 7:19 AM


Bump for admin
Is there anybody there?
I'd like to be put into Comparative Religion, if that's alright by you

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by JavaMan, posted 05-22-2006 7:19 AM JavaMan has not replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 5 of 14 (315062)
05-25-2006 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
05-24-2006 11:50 AM


There's no practical difference between Deism and Atheism
Carry on
Thank you, I will
However, even Epicurus according to your quotes, acknowledged "gods" even if he regarded them as uninvolved in human life.
Yes, I know, but if the gods don't create the universe and don't have anything to do with it, there's no practical difference between this deistic position and atheism. From my reading of history, it seems that people take up a deistic position when explicit atheism would be considered antagonistic to the prevailing religious culture. It allows them to make their philosophical point without worrying that they're going to end up on a bonfire.

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 05-24-2006 11:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 7 of 14 (315069)
05-25-2006 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ikabod
05-25-2006 4:04 AM


Self-interest and liberal democracy
sorry but i must argue that the modern world is founded on the priciples of greed , selfinterest , and "what is the least i can do and stay in power"
Is self-interest wrong? Is your self-interest wrong? I certainly don't think mine is.
life, liberty , and the pursuit of happiness are the bribes used by the "power brokers" to keep the population acquiescent to their rule .
even when the the power brokers fail and are replaced , it is by a set of clones who soon return to the traditional methods .
politics is the smoke screen behind which power is maintained , your rights are there only as long as it suits the design of the power brokers.
The difference between a liberal democracy and a totalitarian state is not that the rulers are better people in the former than in the latter, but that in a liberal democracy we tie their hands behind their backs so that they can't rob and murder us so easily.
Do you have an alternative form of government in mind?

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ikabod, posted 05-25-2006 4:04 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by ikabod, posted 05-25-2006 6:16 AM JavaMan has replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 9 of 14 (315077)
05-25-2006 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by ikabod
05-25-2006 6:16 AM


Re: Self-interest and liberal democracy
sorry but you are falling into the trap of looking at the power by the labels it wears .. all goverments control , the means they use , the stick and carrot employed to keep a stable , productive ( from the view point of the power brokers ) population is a mask .
...all forms goverments end up serving power not the people , not only for the reason that those with power try to hold on to it , but because the people can be lulled into being lead , and handing power over to others .
No. You're falling into the trap of generalisation. Is there really no difference between a liberal democracy and a totalitarian state? Are the power relationships between government and governed just the same in Britain compared to Belarus, say, or in Switzerland compared to Saudi Arabia?
You sound very cynical about human nature and society. Do you think the world could be different than it is? And do you believe it should be?

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ikabod, posted 05-25-2006 6:16 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by ikabod, posted 05-25-2006 8:36 AM JavaMan has not replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2349 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 14 of 14 (315243)
05-26-2006 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by U can call me Cookie
05-25-2006 10:42 AM


Re: maybe not the sole source...
As much as I'd like to, I don't think I could advance Chinese or Indian philosophers as evidence of a long history of atheism in the Western tradition.

The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by U can call me Cookie, posted 05-25-2006 10:42 AM U can call me Cookie has not replied

  
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