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Author Topic:   Why is Israel the good guys????
PaulK
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Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 3 of 63 (62285)
10-23-2003 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
10-23-2003 12:40 AM


I think it is more complex than that. There are political reasons for supporting Israel, although they are gettign weaker.
As I understand it, much of the settlement up to the Partition was legal (although there was violence on both sides). When the Partition was implemented the neighbouring Arab states attacked - but the Israelies won and took more land. The Palestinians seem to have been stuck in the middle.

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 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 12:40 AM Yaro has replied

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 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 4:05 AM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 5 of 63 (62297)
10-23-2003 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Yaro
10-23-2003 4:05 AM


Yes, immigration was allowed in greater numbers because of the events of WWII but I am disturbed by the idea that you suggest that Zionists should have been forbidden from entering and settling altogether.
Is this really consistent with a free society ?

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 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 4:05 AM Yaro has replied

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 Message 6 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 1:10 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 7 of 63 (62373)
10-23-2003 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Yaro
10-23-2003 1:10 PM


So you are saying that if you don't like people's political views they should be barred from your country and forbidden to purchase land there ?

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 Message 6 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 1:10 PM Yaro has replied

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 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 1:39 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 9 of 63 (62393)
10-23-2003 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yaro
10-23-2003 1:39 PM


The Zionist movement was a secular movement founded at the end of the 19th Century, based on the view that anti-semitism made a Jewish homeland necessary. Given the history of Nazi Germany it would be hard to say that they were wrong.
The Zionists were offered - and considered - land in Uganda offered by the British Government. At this stage Zionism was a peaceful political movement encouraging Jews to move to and settle in Palestine, at that time ruled by the Ottoman Empire. The hope was to get Ottoman support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
From there things got slowly worse. The Jews moving in, firstly from Eastern Europe (especially after the pogroms in Russia) and later from other countries had their own prejudices. As did the Palestinian Arabs. The Zionists wanted political power and the Arabs objected to any concessions. Both sides did achieve some concessions (including a restriction on Jewish immigration, in the years leading up to and shortly after WWII) The first reference to serious violence I have found is Arab attacks on Jews, over Jewish use of the Western ("Wailing") Wall in 1929. Jewish attacks on Arabs seem to have mainly started in 1936 when the Haganah organisation moved from defending Jews to preemptive attacks. Around that time a related organisation, Irgun turned to terrorism and began attacks on British and Arab targets.
In 1948 the UN partitioned Palestine between Israel and Jordan (then Transjordan). The armies of Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and Iraq attacked Israel. Despite being outnumbered and relatively poorly equipped isreal defeaed the attack and seized more territory (taking the opportunity to expel many Palestinian Arabs.
So yes, the Zionists did want a chunk of the country. But mostly they wanted it by peaceful political means. And many were secular, not religious.
And you re right that the Jews were never completely banned from immigrating - but isn't that what you are suggesting SHOULD have been done ?

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 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 1:39 PM Yaro has replied

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 Message 10 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 3:38 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 15 of 63 (62403)
10-23-2003 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Yaro
10-23-2003 3:38 PM


For a start it's not quite that simple. Remember that there hadn't been a Palestinian state - it was a part of the Ottoman Empire up to WWI and then administered by the British. The land was being carved up anyway.
Then there was a large contingent of Jewish settlers who wanted a Jewish state. Once they've been accepted in, then they had as much right to their views and to have them heard as any other resident.
It wa the U.N. that divided the land up, and arguably they were too generous to the Zionists. But then again it was the Arab invasion that gave Israel the grounds for seizing more land and for expelling Palestinians.
If you like one of the reasons that Israel is seen as the "good guys" is that their opponents have a bad habit of making themselves look even worse.

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 Message 10 by Yaro, posted 10-23-2003 3:38 PM Yaro has not replied

  
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