Belief...a choice?

In "A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)" here: http://EvC Forum: A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all) -->EvC Forum: A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)jazzlover_PR states: Then he goes on to give the impression that to believe something, all you have to do is choose to believe it.I say that is an incorrect statement. You cannot believe something without some rationalization. For example: I cannot choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, no matter how hard I try. I may be tortured enough, as in Orwell's "1984", but I don't see how I could make myself believe something like that without appropriate evidence.Therefore, I state that belief is not a choice.

But there are some who claim that they developed a belief in God and renounced atheism. I have even spoken to some in my church that say they suddenly believed that Jesus was real and converted. I find this confusing because they offer no explanation on what made them change their belief.Is there some revelation that strikes a non-believer so they immediately "know" God is real? Is religious belief different from other beliefs such that it is something you can choose?

---

The Holy Spirit fell in our congregation...I tried to help Him up but there were all these people laying around in my way.

So, the writers of the Bible decided that in order to add a measure of control over the population, that they had to define belief as a choice? Or...are you saying that belief as a choice is a recent invention of the Christian church? I guess this requires some Biblical knowledge. Psalm 14:1 states that "Fools say to themselves 'There is no God'" and "Fools are evil and do terrible things" Maybe there is support for your statement.Other verses appeal to using reason in order to make the choice to follow God:Isaiah 1:18, Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD . "Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.Acts 17:7, So he {Paul} reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the Godfearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.It seems a little contradictory until you realize that the "reasoning" that was taking place, was used to choose which God to follow...not whether to believe in a God in the first place.Back to the same question.Anyone who thinks that belief is a choice want to help me out here?

---

The Holy Spirit fell in our congregation...I tried to help Him up but there were all these people laying around in my way.

I think if I were struck blind by Jesus then I would tend to listen to Him. Is that how belief is initiated now? I have been going to a fundamentalist church for some time and have seen nothing of this. Philip was the one who spoke to the angel and then worked on the conversion of the Ethiopian. Although the Ethiopian seemed to already believe in the scriptures he was reading, we know nothing of how he came to believe they were true. Philip's job was just providing the explanation of the scripture (as he saw it).How does this show that belief is something chosen rather than something gained through the interpretation of evidence? I can tell you that if someone raised my father from the dead, I would tend to believe what they have to say. (Oops...can't do that either 'cause ol' 666 will do that in the last days) So, truth has nothing to do with it? We should just believe that which makes us happy? Unless you are saying that belief makes truth.
Probably not.

Perhaps it is the latter but with my eternal soul (apparently) depending upon my choosing what I believe, I would like a little more confidence that I can even make that choice.

---

The Holy Spirit fell in our congregation...I tried to help Him up but there were all these people laying around in my way.

Belief through personal experience probably has some value. Less so if it cannot be independently corroborated. If someone else on the ground watched you get abducted then that would help in the evidence. More people or film....more evidence.You know, like a pillar of fire...or Red Sea parting. If lots of people see it then it is more credible.Now-a-days God seems to want to keep the personal experience unique and unverifiable. Most everything is appealling to the emotions of the crowd.But the experience seems to be enough to get people to believe. Now to the real question. Does anyone actually choose to believe or is it the experience (no matter how seemingly trivial) that instills the belief? The experience then becomes part of the evidence used to rationalize the belief.Again, not a choice but a rationalization based upon some sort of evidence.edited 'cause the box didn't turn out.This message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-23-2004 05:18 PM

Is it either/or? Why can't God have caused the Big Bang, a la portions of "The Case for a Creator"? Besides, you say we choose to believe. Ok...why did you choose to believe as you do? Does this mean that spiritual belief is different than natural belief? I won't be able to believe until the [Holy?] Spirit prepares me? Even so, all that seems to mean is that the Spirit "opens my eyes" to the evidence that I was interpreting wrongly. Still, then I would be believing due to the Spirit's influence. From that the only choice I would have is whether I will follow God (Jesus) or not. Again, I did not choose to believe in God, the choice was made for me. George, this next remark reflects my frustration with Bible Study and not with your expression of your convictions. I have studied slowly and for quite a long time. This has only confused me and led to questions that noone in my church thinks I should even ask. They certainly make no effort to provide an answer except "pray about it" or "you just need to believe it". Sorry folks, my mind doesn't work that way. Additionally, I am sure that the God described by the "believers" should know this and be able to provide me with the information or perception that I need to "believe". He is omnipotent, right? If He can be bothered to help someone find their keys then He certainly can be interested enough in my soul to help me believe.Sorry for the rant.I still see no examples of actual choice in belief.Edited because I don't know how to underline.Edited again because I can't spell without MS Word.This message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-24-2004 09:19 AMThis message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-24-2004 09:26 AM

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

Discussion of what caused you to believe is exactly on topic. The whole thing is about choosing to believe. I say that without a certain amount of evidence (this varies from person to person) that you cannot choose to believe something. The crux of this discussion is: Can a person choose to believe something despite evidence that they perceive as contradictary to that belief or in the face of what they perceive is a lack of evidence to support that belief? I say no.If we explore the basis of your belief then we may find that you actually used a certain amount of reason to determine that the evidence supporting the existence of the Christian God was enough for you to believe. You may have actually required something to change your beliefs.With that said and if you are willing, could you elaborate on the circumstances where you chose to believe in your perception of God?

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

Your "spiritual experiences" and "all the different facts..." caused you to be conviced of God's existence or that Christianity is the right religion or both. You did not just choose to believe. The evidence was strong enough, for you, to instill belief.Perhaps we are not communicating well. You seemed to indicate earlier that belief is a choice yet your statements show that you did not just choose to believe. You may have chosen to follow, but belief was already there. Not necessarily and either/or situation...there may be a third choice. Perhaps they were deceived, for example.

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

Then you don't concern yourself with the validity of the evidence? Perhaps you just assumed that the evidence was valid when it supported BibleGod belief and invalid when it did not. Regardless, you still had evidence that caused you to believe. The choice was whether to follow God or not...it was not whether to believe or not...from what I can gather from the facts you present.If you look in post 34 you can see the restatement of my reason for this thread. My statement is still no...he can'tBy saying that belief is a choice then you are saying that no amount of information refuting your belief will change your mind about it as long as you choose to believe it. Then you can choose to believe that 2+2=5 despite all evidence against it.I don't have that capability. I can't just believe something because someone tells me that it is the right thing to believe.

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

Hi zol! Actually, you have "seen" the wind through the physical effects it has on the things it passes by including the pressure on the nerve endings on the skin.Besides, I am not saying that there is or is not physical evidence of the existence of God. I am addressing the fact that many Christians express that a person can choose to change their beliefs. I have heard it said by Christians that athiests would be no worse off than they are now if they chose to believe in Christ...kinda as a "just in case" the athiest was wrong about God not existing. Now, in a religion that is all about what you believe, I am reasonably sure that God is going to know if you are faking belief. So, an athiest that is faking or "going through the motions" is really no better off, in God's eyes, than if he just stayed away from the church.Also, I doubt that Jesus would like the idea of his "Way" being a fall back plan.Remember Matthew 22:37 where Jesus is saying the greatest commandment 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'. I think that God would notice if you were faking that. Therefore the belief must be genuine.You may be able to choose to follow the rules of Christianity but just following the rules without belief doesn't get you to heaven.Belief does. So....back to the original question: Can you choose to believe?

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

I think Schrafinator was not criticizing your choice as much as stating that the uncomfortable truth is better than a comfortable lie. (not so sure I completely agree). But the problem is that the Christians can't refrain from judgement. Christ told everyone to preach the gospel throughout the whole earth. You can't point out the right way without making people realize that you think their way is wrong. Is that not judgement? I think much of the retoric in this forum that is critical of Christians is more reactionary than an assault. Most of the people here don't care that you believe in Christ's Way or pink unicorns as long as you let them believe what they want without telling them how screwed they are going to be after they die.And after that little rant, I still can't find anyone who can show me how I can choose to believe something (2+2=5, pink unicorns, invisible elves that fart on your pumpkin pies...etc) that I cannot rationalize as true from the evidence presented to me.I don't see how you can choose what you believe, although I can understand how belief can be instilled through upbringing. The Bible even states to do this. Proverbs 22:6 Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.
I can even understand that influence as a child can cause someone to believe later in life without realizing the impetus of that belief.

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

I am not implying that you are weilding any WMD's to convince the great unwashed of the immovability of the Rock upon which you stand. However, this verse (different translations below) indicates more action than you say that you use.{NIV}Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.{KJV}Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you {AMP}Matthew 28:19-20 Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 Teaching them to observe everything that I have commanded you,Admittedly, It does not say specifically to use a sledgehammer, but that method is not excluded either. Some groups use more heavy handed methods to "make desciples". They scare you: "Lake of Fire"; insult you: Psalm 53:1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. ; and hate you:, "God Hates Fags". But I find little support upon which I can base belief and, BTW, I am looking earnestly for it.But that's just me.Perhaps you can provide me with some examples of others choosing to believe in something despite evidence against it or with a dearth of evidence for it, OR, better yet no evidence at all. It does not have to be religious belief. Anything that shows someone choosing to change their beliefs, without a change in evidence for/against that belief, will do.Just to get back on topicThis message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-29-2004 09:23 AM

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

Then it is ok to call nonbelievers fools.Do you fashion cords into whips to get people to stop doing wrong things, such as selling items, at inflated(?) prices, in the temple?How about addressing the topic at hand...ie Can we choose what we believe?I'll look at 'what people believe' in google...sounds amusing.

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"

Not who but what. The answer is: my incredulity when the facts are presented.You seem to think that you can change your beliefs by a force of will despite the input of your senses or your rational mind. Then I guess you can change your belief so that those invisible elves are now real...no more pumpkin pie for you!! Perhaps I could give you 2 two-dollar bills for a five? You won't notice once you change your belief in the addition of even numbers.To choose to follow, once you believe, is one thing (I think that is what you are referring to), to actually choose to believe is another.Seriously, the crux of this matter is that some don't believe based upon their logical processing of the facts presented. So, how do you reach those folks? They aren't choosing not to follow Christ, they say that they don't see enough evidence that Christ is the Son of God...that a Holy Spirit exists....or Bible God even exists. They truly can not make that leap. So now they are being judged by God for what they can't help? Not being convinced is a sin or disobedience? Some of this sounds a bit off-topic but it emphasises the point. If belief is a choice, then non-belief is disobedience. I just don't see how it can be a choice. Do you have an example perhaps? Could barely wait but still blew me off with a flip reply. So, it is not ok for Christians to judge some actions (selling religious necessities for excessive profit) but ok for Christians to judge others (homosexuality, drinking,lack of belief in a divine Christ)? You brought up WWJD. I just provided examples of what He had done.

---

"We are a Bible believing church...All men please proceed to the Deuteronomy 23:1 inspection station before going into the Main Sanctuary"