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Author Topic:   Israel/Lebanon/Gaza conflict (continuation thread)
macaroniandcheese 
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Posts: 4258
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Message 48 of 300 (334292)
07-22-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by MangyTiger
07-22-2006 12:02 PM


"If anything even vaguely resembles a rocket launcher, it will be hit".
somehow that translates to trucks full of hummus and antibiotics.

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macaroniandcheese 
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Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 75 of 300 (335021)
07-24-2006 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by U can call me Cookie
07-24-2006 10:53 AM


Re: "Any moving car becomes a target..."
One of the things mentioned in defence of Israel's tactics was that the Lebanese civilians had been forewarned of strikes, and told to leave.
the first draft of the genocide conventions (and i believe the better) included forced move in it's definition.
quote:
3. [Cultural genocide] Destroying the specific characteristics of the group by:
(a) forcible transfer of children to another human group; or
(b) forced and systematic exile of individuals representing the culture of a group; or
(c) prohibition of the use of the national language even in private intercourse; or
(d) systematic destruction of books printed in the national language or of religious works or prohibition of new publications; or
(e) systematic destruction of historical or religious monuments or their diversion to alien uses, destruction or dispersion of documents and objects of historical, artistic, or religious value and of objects used in religious worship.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 76 of 300 (335033)
07-24-2006 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Buzsaw
07-23-2006 10:30 PM


Re: What you think?
Amnesty International
Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted crimes against humanity and war crimes, including unlawful killings; extensive and wanton destruction of property; obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel; torture; and the use of Palestinians as “human shields”. The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity.
...
”Human shields’
Israeli soldiers continued to use Palestinians as “human shields” during military operations, forcing them to carry out tasks that endangered their lives, despite an injunction by the Israeli High Court banning the practice. A petition against the use of “human shields” submitted by Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations to the Supreme Court in May 2002 was still pending at the end of 2004.
* In April, Israeli soldiers used 13-year-old Muhammed Badwan as a “human shield” during a demonstration in the West Bank village of Biddu. The soldiers placed the boy on the hood of their jeep and tied him to the front windscreen to discourage Palestinian demonstrators from throwing stones in their direction.
Amnesty International
Amnesty International welcomes the banning, by Israel's High Court, of the use of Palestinians as "human shields" by the Israeli army. The long-awaited High Court ruling of 6 October 2005 came in response to a petition filed in May 2002 by several Israeli and Palestinian human rights organizations seeking a ban of the practice, which endangered the lives of the Palestinians who were used as "human shields" and violated international law, notably Article 51 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
In recent years, Amnesty International investigated tens of cases where the Israeli army used Palestinians, children as well as adults, as "human shields" during military operations in towns and refugee camps throughout the Occupied Territories. Palestinian civilians were forced to walk in front of Israeli soldiers who, at times, fired their weapons while shielding themselves behind the civilians. As well, Palestinian civilians were made to enter houses ahead of Israeli soldiers to check for explosives or gunmen hiding inside, to inspect suspicious objects, to stay in their houses when Israeli soldiers took them over to use as sniper positions, or to enter the houses of wanted, possibly armed, Palestinians to tell them to surrender to Israeli forces.
The High Court failed to rule on the issue for three and a half years after receiving the petition calling for the practice to be outlawed. During this time, the Israeli army continued to use Palestinians as "human shields" and, in response to the petition, claimed that Palestinians were used only to perform tasks to which they agreed and which the military commander deemed safe. The army initially referred to the practice as "neighbourhood procedure" and subsequently as "prior warning procedure".
they wouldn't have to ban it if it weren't being done. but we all know how well soldiers listen to bans. the uniform code of conduct in this country strictly forbits torture... and even our president doesn't care.
We apologize for the inconvenience... - United States Department of State
Israeli forces used Palestinians as "human shields" in violation of applicable Israeli law. In 2002, the Israeli High Court of Justice granted an injunction against the use of Palestinians as "shields" for Israeli forces. The IDF admitted violations of existing procedures and reiterated that IDF forces "are absolutely forbidden to use civilians of any kind as a means of 'living shield' against gunfire or attack by the Palestinian side, or as 'hostages.'" However, IDF soldiers were permitted to seek consensual assistance of civilians in operations. Human rights groups asserted that Palestinians who consented often did so out of fear even if they were not coerced. Such Palestinians face the risk of being branded as collaborators.
even our state department accepts that this is true.
play
The Israeli army has signalled its intention to keep using Palestinian civilians as human shields in operations aimed at assassinating, arresting or kidnapping Palestinian political and resistance activists.
The Israeli High Court issued a ruling earlier this week barring the army from using Palestinian civilians as human shields, a practice used heavily in the West Bank, particularly since the outbreak of the Palestinian intifada or uprising in 2000.
On Tuesday, Israeli military sources said the army would press the High Court to reconsider the ruling on the ground that it would complicate "army activities" in the West Bank.
The army has sought to downplay the gravity of the "human shield practice", describing it as a "generally innocuous early warning procedure".
not that you'll give this source any credence...
Just a moment...
B'Tselem's initial investigation indicates that, during an incursion by Israeli forces into Beit Hanun, in the northern Gaza Strip, on 17 July 2006, soldiers seized control of two buildings in the town and used residents as human shield.
omg an israeli source. must just be self-hating jews.
btw, here it says it wasn't just a field development based on desperate situations (as though that would make it okay.).
Just a moment...
The soldiers in the field did not initiate this practice; rather, the order to use civilians as a means of protection was made by senior army officials.
here's a few victims
Human Shields
Suspected execution of Mahmud Kmel and use of Palestianians as human shields by IDF soldiers in Raba, Jenin District, December 2004
Tayil Muhammad Al-Bazur
Suleiman Ahmad Muhammad Qasrawi
Tulkarm Refugee Camp: IDF soldiers use Ahmad 'Asaf as a human shield, January 2004
Ahmad Abd al-Qader Ahmad 'Asaf
Nablus: IDF use 'Ula 'Awad, as a human shield, March, 2003
'Ula Kamal Shafik 'Awad
Nablus: IDF soldiers use Nabhan Najar as a human shield, December 2002
Nabhan Tawfiq 'Ali Najar
Hebron: IDF soldiers beat and abuse Palestinians in barbershop, December 2002
Wa'il Mahmoud Muhammad Abu Rumeileh
Bilal Ma'adi Daud a-Rajbi
Bassem Yasser Khalf Maswadeh
Muhammad Jibril Jamil a-Rajbi
Jenin: IDF soldiers use Khaled Kamil as a human shield, November 2002
Khaled Ibrahim Muhammad Kamil
IDF uses Husam Subuh and Tawfiq Salah as human shields, September 2002
Husam Salim Ahmad Ahmad Subuh
Tawfiq Zaqi Yusef Salah
IDF use Palestinian man, Mahmud Abu 'Arara, as a human shield, September 2002
Mahmoud Narmi Hamed Abu 'Arara
Jenin District: IDF use Shaf'a Ghanem, as a human shield, September 2002
Shaf'a Mahmud Shaf'a Ghanem
IDF use Samir Abu 'Amra and Ahmad Abu 'Amra as human shields, August 2002
Samir Muhammad Hmeidan Abu Amra
and here's a general list of this year's abuses.
2006
Israeli Soldiers Use Palestinians as Human Shields during Incursion into Beit Hanun, July 2006
Hazem 'Othman Qassem 'Ali
Laila Shqeirat attempts to conduct normal life routine while leaving in the besieged village of a-Sheikh Sa'ed, June 2006
Lila 'Abd al-Musa Shqeirat
Border Police beat bus driver Fadel 'Alan at when he brought disabled children home to a-Sheikh Sa'ed, May 2006
Fadel Muhammad 'Abdallah 'Alan
64 year-old resident of a-Sheikh Sa'ed with chest pains forced to walk two hours to reach the hospital
Ahmad Muhammad Mashur al-Mashahareh
Border Police officer beats Ra'id Fatafteh at checkpoint, injuring him, Hebron, May 2006
Ra'id Mahmoud 'Abd a-Salam Fatafteh
IDF soldiers beat two press photographers in Hebron, April 2006
Nayef Diab 'Abd al-Hafiz al-Hashlamouni
IDF shells inhabited area in Beit Lahiya, hits house, wounding four persons, 4 April 2006
Yusef Ahmad Salama Abu Shmas
Mustafa Ahmad Salama Abu Shmas
IDF soldiers shoot youth to death in the Qalandia refugee camp, Ramallah District, April 2006
Nader Naji Muhammad 'Othman
Soldiers fire at Palestinians sneaking into Israel to work, severely wounding one of them, Deir Ballut, April 2006
Maher Muhammad 'Abed al-Hamid Shaqarneh
Khaled Ahmad Muhammad Fanun
Settlers assault Palestinian shepherds sleeping in tents in the southern Hebron hills, 26 March 2006
'Aziz Musa Muhammad Shnaran
'Abd a-Rahman Musa Muhammad Shnaran
IDF soldiers shoot 7 year-old to death in al-Yamun, Jenin district, March 2006
Kamal 'Izzat Taher Zaid
Soldiers humiliated Palestinian detainees during IDF assault on Jericho Prison, March 2006
Fadi Fathi Yusef Abu Tabikh
Settlers beat Jamal a-Nawaj'a and throw stones at his mother and wife, in Susiya, March 2006
Jamal Isma'il a-Nawaj'ah
Samiha 'Ikab a-Nawaj'ah
'Alia Khamis a-Nawaj'ah
Plain Clothed Police beat two children in Abu Tor, East Jerusalem, 12 March 2006
Hamza Fawzi Musa 'Ewidah
IDF soldiers beat 7 Palestinian youths, 5 of them minors, Hebron area, March 2006
Tamer Yusef Muhammad 'Amru
Muhammad Maher Muhammad 'Abido
Soldiers disrupt work in charcoal factory near Jenin, February 2006
Muhammad Ahmad Ibrahim 'Abadi
IDF soldiers beat Palestinan youths at a checkpoint near the al-Fawwar refugee camp, February 2006
'Alaa Nafez 'Abd al-Majid Hilkawi
Alaa Khader Muhammad al-Ma'iwi
Soldiers confiscate identity card of Palestinian for remaining in the Jordan Valley without a permit, February 2006
Ra'id Hassan Muhammad Sawaftah
Border Police fire stun grenade at child, wounding him in the head, Shu'afat refugee camp, East Jerusalem, February. 2006
Ahmad Muhammad 'Isma'il al-'Amleh
Ibrahim Isma'il Muhammad al-'Amleh
IDF soldiers beat Faris 'Awidat while detaining him, 2 February 2006
Fares Kamel Salem 'Aweidat
Palestinian mother prevented from visiting her married daughter in the Jordan Valley, January 2006
Ni'meh 'Ali Salameh Abu Zaharah
IDF soldiers beat 17-year-old at a surprise checkpoint, January 2006
Jihad Mustafa Khaled Harzalla
and here's a list of publications.
Just a moment...
Human Shields
Soldiers' Abuse of Palestinians in Hebron
Case Study No. 17, December 2002
View summary
Download the report: DOC, Zipped RTF, PDF
Human Shield: Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields in Violation of the High Court of Justice Order December 2003
Information Sheet, November 2002
View summary
Download the report: DOC, RTF, PDF
Operation Defensive Shield: Soldiers' Testimonies, Palestinian Testimonies
Journal, September 2002
Download the report: PDF
here's a few more random links
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel faces human shield claim
http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2331

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 77 of 300 (335035)
07-24-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Nighttrain
07-24-2006 9:31 PM


Re: The more things change, the more----
i think the hamas government is making great efforts. however, as long as the us and israel proclaim it a false government and refuse to talk to them or send aid, they will be able to accomplish nothing and will eventually probably fall. and then palestine will be without a government once again and with all the more reason to fight. if we do not honor their attempts at government and peace, then we are at fault. we must try. we haven't even given this government the chance to change things. they came into power and we cut off all aid and communication and then israel started bombing again. they try to make a government and we dash it all up.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Nighttrain, posted 07-25-2006 7:34 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 80 of 300 (335146)
07-25-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Nighttrain
07-25-2006 7:34 AM


Re: The more things change, the more----
muslims states are no more unified than christians ones. that's a myth invented by fundies on either side about the ever-advancing and terrifying army and politik of allah. it's crap. all nations seek their own interests. helping palestine doesn't seem to be involved in anyones selfish goals.

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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 82 of 300 (335297)
07-25-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Nighttrain
07-25-2006 6:31 PM


Re: The more things change, the more----
the saudis put an anti-violence rider on something? i think not.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 89 of 300 (335477)
07-26-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by MangyTiger
07-25-2006 9:08 PM


Re: So why is Israel targeting the UN?
why? to end international scrutiny. and you know what happens without international scrutiny?
i'm thinking of a phrase that begins with 'crimes' and ends with 'against humanity'.
if i had my real computer with all my sources, i'd start writing a paper on the potentially impending genocide. i've already written one paper analyzing and applying the process... i suppose now is the time for the next. i just really thought i'd have more time.
*edit*
i found a copy of my paper on my journal. here's what i was referring to..
The literature suggests that there is a consistent set of predictive factors that are common to states in which genocides occur. These countries tend to follow this model: a non-democratic government that demonstrates a pattern of discriminatory and exclusionary policy, a “history of... violent ethnic conflict," and a strong foreign ally that helps shield the country from international pressures.
“More proximately, an ethnic rebellion has started or a war. The dominant group”the future genocide perpetrators who control the state”engages in a massive hate and fear propaganda campaign in the media in which the future victims are dehumanized, demonized, and targeted. The dominant group organizes paramilitary militias; with the help of the army, it arms, trains, and indoctrinates militia members for killing the target group. These are the most common and most visible indicators of early warning."
non-democratic government?
no not really. but somehow i just don't see that being a problem.
patterns of descriminatory and exclusionary policy?
haha, yeah.
strong foreign ally to sheild from international pressures?
that would be us.
ethnic rebellion or war?
yes.
massive hate and fear propaganda?
yes.
paramilitary militias?
i don't think they need to. the idf is sufficient. but who knows.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 101 of 300 (336225)
07-28-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by anglagard
07-28-2006 10:22 PM


Re: Israel above the law
they just make this stuff up don't they?

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 204 of 300 (336946)
07-31-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Faith
07-31-2006 2:47 PM


Re: I trust those sources.
of course the sources you agree with are accurate
i, however, am interested in your call for the annihilation of a group based solely on their personal convictions. clearly that is the only difference between they who shell a nation of civilians and the israelis who are shelling a nation of civilians.
of course, i'm under the bizarre impression that we revere freedom of thought. what a damned fool i am, eh?
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 208 of 300 (336952)
07-31-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by Faith
07-31-2006 3:25 PM


Re: I trust those sources.
you mistook what i said, as usual. i'm not suggesting that they be treated like ladies at a tea party. but to go out with the intent of killing them all with impunity is disgusting.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 212 of 300 (336974)
07-31-2006 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
07-31-2006 3:37 PM


Re: I trust those sources.
And what's wrong with killing murderous criminals anyway?
i value human life and i believe that my god demanded that vengence be his reserved choice. it is not my place to support the killing of any living person for any reason with the possible exception of IMMEDIATE self defence which does not include countries.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 5:02 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 213 of 300 (336975)
07-31-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Parasomnium
07-31-2006 4:04 PM


Re: Never-ending violence
You'd think that those people over there would have noticed the downward spiral by now, but no.
you'd think that jews would know how dangerous it is to demonize an entire group of people based on some conspiracy theory...
god forbid anyone learn a lesson ever. whole lot of morons.

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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 218 of 300 (336991)
07-31-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Faith
07-31-2006 5:02 PM


Re: I trust those sources.
after all, it is catastrophic judgement from god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 5:02 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 5:44 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 219 of 300 (336993)
07-31-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Faith
07-31-2006 5:15 PM


Re: Never-ending violence
Executing criminals when necessary is a righteous act and it serves to promote peace in the world.
and after thousands of years of executing prisoners, where exactly is our peace?
you have a bizarre and distorted version of peace. didn't your god say to turn the cheek?

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3958 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 223 of 300 (337003)
07-31-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by Faith
07-31-2006 5:26 PM


Re: Never-ending violence
finally decided to retaliate? israel has been shelling varios "terrorist organizations" for 50 years. what are you smoking?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by Faith, posted 07-31-2006 5:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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