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Author Topic:   Gorilla strength
johhno
Inactive Member


Message 223 of 287 (349230)
09-15-2006 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by LudoRephaim
06-10-2006 5:35 PM


Re: ultimate critter
Although I am not particularly interested in the bear vs bull topic which has developed on this forum, I want to comment on it due to the number of factual errors that have crept into various postings. Firstly, some of the weights of bears mentioned on this forum are totally incorrect. Hunters' tales and folklore have been responsible for much of this misinformation which has then found its way into popular literature. As one authority noted, the largest bears are always shot in areas without accurate scales (hardly surprising...) According to official zoological sources, these are the average/ range/highest weights of bears as below (nb. some of the highest weights are estimates rather than official records)
American Black Bear...250 ..... 125-600..... 803
Brown Bear ... 725 ..... 500-900 .....2,500+ ?
Grizzly Bear ... 490 ..... 350-700 .....1,100 / 1,496 ?
Polar Bear ... 1,150 ..... 900-1,500 ..... 2,210
The average weights of the American grizzly bear is 490 lbs with a maximum 'offical' recorded weight of either 1,100 lb or 1496 lb depending on which authority one accepts. Brown bears of the Russian far east are the world's largest bears along with Kodiac bears (now actually extinct on Kodiac Island). These bears may get somewhat larger than grizzlies, with a length of up to 10 ft. But even very large bears are hunted and eaten by Amur tigers and as has been no doubt mentioned, a good portion of the Amur tiger's diet is comprised of brown bear. The tiger is always placed at the top of the food pyramid in all habitats where it occurs because it is not predated upon by other animals.
Secondly, NONE of the sources on Californian grizzly bear fights that I've read (and I've seen quite a few) state that the bear was always the victor in such conflicts. In most cases of bear vs bull, both animals died during the conflict. One particular bear was proficient at fighting bulls but had been a known predator of cattle for many years. The bulls often killed the bears by throwing or goring them and apparently when a mountain lion was pitted against a grizzly, the lion won (many of you may have seen the video clip of a mountain lion with cubs seeing off a grizzly bear three times its own size). The bulls were further hindered by having their legs shackled (sometimes to that of the bear) which would surely disadvantage any ungulate moreso than it would the predator. Jackasses were also pitted against grizzlies later on in the piece. Below are some excerpts from period commentaries on capturing grizzlies and of pit fights. Makes for gory reading and is also rather tragic given the subsequent wiping out of the Californian grizzly.
"Every Mission and ranch in old times had its calaveras, its “place of skulls,” its slaughter corral, where cattle and sheep were killed by the Indian butchers Every Saturday morning the fattest animals were chosen and driven there, and by night the hides were all stretched on the hillside to dry. At one time a hundred cattle and two hundred sheep were killed weekly at the Mission San José, and the meat was distributed to all, “without money and without price.” The grizzly bears, which were very abundant in the country, ” for no one ever poisoned them, as the American stock raisers did after 1849, ” used to come by night to the ravines near the slaughter-corral where the refuse was thrown by the butchers. The young Spanish gentlemen often rode out on moonlight nights to lasso these bears, and then they would drag them through the village street, and past the houses of their friends. Two men with their strong rawhide reatas could hold any bear, and when they were tired of this sport they could kill him. But sometimes the bears would walk through the village on their way to or from the corral of the butchers, and so scatter the people. Several times a serenade party, singing and playing by moonlight, was suddenly broken up by two or three grizzlies trotting down the hill into the street, and the gay caballeros with their guitars would spring over the adobe walls and run for their horses, which always stood saddled, with a reata coiled, ready for use, as a saddle bow. It was the custom in every family to keep saddled horses in easy reach, day and night.
Innumerable stories about grizzlies are traditional in the old Spanish families, not only in the Santa Clara Valley, but also through the Coast Range from San Diego to Sonoma and Santa Rosa. Some of the bravest of the young men would go out alone to kill grizzlies. When they had lassoed one they would drag him to a tree, and the well-trained horse would hold the bear against it while the hunter slipped out of the saddle, ran up, and killed the grizzly with one stroke of his broad-bladed machete, or Mexican hunting knife. One Spanish gentlemen riding after a large grizzly lassoed it and was dragged into a deep barranca. Horse and man fell on the bear, and astonished him so much that he scrambled up the bank, and the hunter cut the reata and gladly enough let him go. There were many cases of herdsmen and hunters being killed by grizzlies, and one could fill a volume with stories of feats of courage and of mastery of the reata. The governor of California appointed expert bear hunters in different parts of the country, who spent their time in destroying them, by pits, or shooting, or with the reata. Don Rafael Soto, one of the most famous of these men used to conceal himself in a pit, covered with heavy logs and leaves, with a quarter of freshly killed beef above. When the grizzly bear walked on the logs he was shot from beneath. Before the feast- days the hunters sometimes went to the foothills and brought several bears to turn into the bull-fighting corral, The principal bull- fights were held at Easter and on the day of the patron saint of the Mission, which at the Mission San José was March 19. Young gentlemen who had trained for the contest entered the ring on foot and on horseback, after the Mexican manner. In the bull and bear fights a hind foot of the bear was often tied to the forefoot of the bull, to equalize the struggle, for a large grizzly was more than a match for the fiercest bull in California, or indeed of any other country. Bull and bear fights continued as late as 1855. The Indians were the most ardent supporters of this cruel sport."
And further:
"The bulls used for fighting were not the modern-day domestic type. ?Sharp of horn? and ?quick of foot,? these Spanish bulls possessed notoriously bad tempers and ?a charge like that of a catapult.? Attached at the leg by a leather cord about twenty yards long and penned in at close range, the two wild beasts had no choice but to face off. The fights were, as can be imagined, quite gory and certainly sated the bloodlust in even the most masochistic of audiences. Although matches were reported to have lasted up to two hours, things generally ended quickly, especially when the bear grabbed hold of the bull?s Achilles? heel?its tongue. One attendee recalled the horror of a fight?s final moments as the bear, ?its entrails dragging, ripped off the tongue, the ears, and much of the lower jaw of the bull.? If a bull triumphed, his victory usually came early in the tournament if he got lucky enough to ?plunge his long, curving horns in to the bear?s body, toss his adversary high into the air, and then gore him to death as the bear lay prostrate on the ground.? More often than not, however, both animals succumbed to their wounds."
Finally:
Onlookers too were at risk of injury. Bears or bulls, finding themselves free from their opponents when their restraints were somehow severed in battle, often ?forgot their differences? and fled, smashing and swiping their way through the audience in a desperate bid for freedom. A particularly determined bear ran pell-mell through the streets of San Francisco before clambering up the belltower of the Mission Dolores. So ensconced, the incensed bear held capturers at bay for several hours and alarmed the town with repeated clanging of the bell.
There were numerous variations in the contest. Denizens of Big Sur trapped a mountain lion and set it loose on a bear. The big cat won.
Nevada City residents had the grand idea of pitting a grizzly against a ?champion fighting jackass,? opening the gates to dozens of bear versus donkey matches throughout the state. ?If the bear was a real grizzly, he always won,? wrote one reporter, ?But the burro would worry him desperately for a long time. The bear would suffer tremendous jolts on the jaw from the burro?s heels, that would send him staggering back time and again.? Then the burro would latch on with its teeth until in its fury ?the angry bear bit the donkey?s leg off or bit his head ? As state became more civilized, bear and bull fights were outlawed. ?The pleasure a set of civilized beings can find in witnessing the forced conflict of animals,? wrote a reporter for a Bay Area newspaper.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-10-2006 5:35 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

  
johhno
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 287 (357376)
10-18-2006 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by djrobins
10-17-2006 11:50 PM


Re: Body structure comparison
Casey is certainly a very powerful animal. Recently there have been a number of gorilla escapes from zoos which show that even large gorillas are able to jump moats and climb glass and apparently smooth concrete walls because of their incredible muscular power. On a weight for weight basis, I would say that the gorilla, and probably specifically the eastern lowland subspecies, is the strongest of all mammals. Regarding zoo escapes, there was the case of Jabari at Dallas zoo (tragically shot to death by police after he broke down a door, jumped a wide moat and vaulted over a high wall after being taunted by teenagers, and after zoo staff bungled attempts to tranquilise him; Little Joe at Franklin Park (several escapes); Bokito at Berlin - there are numerous instances of gorillas performing seemingly impossible escape feats. Here are some links:
Boston.com / News / Local / Franklin Park gorilla escapes, attacks 2
MSN | Outlook, Office, Skype, Bing, Breaking News, and Latest Videos
http://www.kidsnewsroom.org/newsissues/061804/index.asp?p...
http://lists.ibiblio.org/...onkeywire/2004-March/000553.html
http://lists.ibiblio.org/...monkeywire/2004-June/000626.html
06/23/04 Berlin, Germany
Silverback gorilla scales 15-foot glass barrier wall to escape his enclosure at Berlin Zoo. 260-pound gorilla bolts toward antelope enclosure before he is subdued by narcotic dart and confined. (United Press International)
Bokito the gorilla has a day out at the zoo
(Filed: 24/06/2004)
Parents and children fled in panic when Bokito, a 22-stone silverback gorilla, decided to sample life on the other side of his compound at Berlin zoo.The eight-year-old great ape vaulted a 15-foot plate-glass wall in front of his quarters and strolled over to a bench where he sat scratching his chest. Two zookeepers tried to lead him away but Bokito gently but firmly resisted. When a vet arrived, Bokito finally gave way and got up with a sigh to walk hand-in-hand with the keepers as far as the antelope house, where he decided to take another break.
Traditionally people have assumed that apes could not jump very high because their power seems to be concentrated in their upper body. This is now known to be incorrect - it is correct that the upper body of an ape is more powerful than the lower, but the lower body is still immensely powerful. A recent study on a 34 kg Bonobo chimp found that it was easily able to produce a vertical jump of 0.78 metres which was twice as high as the jump of seasoned human athletes weighing 61 kg. The legs and hips of the bonobo were producing over twice the power output per muscle mass than that of the human athletes (remember this is an untrained zoo animal compared with trained athletes in their prime). The bonobo was almost jumping as high as it's neck when standing upright, which would be like a tall basketball player jumping 5-6 ft. off the court! See Proceedings of the Royal Soc series B 2006 vol 273, p. 2177-2184 (Vertical jumping performance of bonobo Pan paniscus suggests superior muscle properties, by Scholz, M.N. et al).
Anyone who has ever watched gorillas snap giant bamboo stems will wonder how they appear to do it so effortlessly. Tests on 4 inch diameter bamboo using mechanical 'arms' suggest it takes 580 kg of force before they begin to snap. Wildlife artist Eric Wilson mentions taking a sample of bamboo that had been snapped by a male gorilla and which he was unable to break even when jumping on it. As regards the pulling power of a silverback, Jack Thropp relates how a tug of war apparatus was set up for the zoo gorilla Cameroun..."We had to find a material durable enough to use for a pull. The first material was a 1,000 lb test nylon chain. Cameroun just laid it across his chest and "Samson-like" popped it into pieces. A steel chain was tried, but was too noisy and it kinked. A cotton rope was quickly turned into a frayed rag and hemp rope untwisted. Success was finally achieved with braid-woven nylon rope."
The Ringling Bros circus gorilla Gargantua, who had a tragic life, was always up for a tug-of-war with volunteer contestants, although each time he threw the end of the rope out, he would shorten it somewhat, thus hoping to lure the opponents to within biting distance! In his book on Gargantua, Plowden claims that Gargantua had the strength of 27 men, but surely this would be an exageration. The circus also promoted him as a 500 lb 'monster' when in fact Gargantua was not large for an adult male gorilla (possibly as a result of intestinal damage due to chemical poisoning when he was an infant) and weighed well less than 400 lbs when he died. Another gorilla Willie B was given the opportunity to play tug-of-war and always won when he wanted to pull against crowds of people and zoo staff, but seemed more concerned with getting all the rope into his cage where he could play with it. There are numerous other cases of gorillas performing exceptional feats of strength. Bushman of Chicago Zoo was able to stretch a penumatic car tyre the length of his armspread - a seemingly impossible task and yet he was observed doing just that.
Testing jsut how strong a gorilla is however would be very difficult. The only known dynamometer tests I have seen were done on chimps.
"In tests at the Bronx Zoo in 1924, a dynamometer--a scale that measures the mechanical force of a pull on a spring--was erected in the monkey house. A 165-pound male chimpanzee named "Boma" registered a pull of 847 pounds, using only his right hand (although he did have his feet braced against the wall, being somewhat hip, in his simian way, to the principles of leverage). A 165-pound man, by comparison, could manage a one-handed pull of about 210 pounds. Even more frightening, a female chimp, weighing a mere 135 pounds and going by the name of Suzette, checked in with a one-handed pull of 1,260 pounds. (She was in a fit of passion at the time; one shudders to think what her boyfriend must have looked like next morning.)"
Gorillas are magnificent animals that just want to live in peace. They deserve our admiration and respect. I only hope they can continue to survive in their natural habitat which is being threatened from many sides.
Johhno

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by djrobins, posted 10-17-2006 11:50 PM djrobins has not replied

  
johhno
Inactive Member


Message 230 of 287 (388928)
03-08-2007 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by LudoRephaim
06-10-2006 5:35 PM


Re: ultimate critter
As has already been noted, details of the the alleged grizzly bear vs lion fight are sketchy at best and I don't think you can place much credence in it (what condition was the lion in? - would the outcome have been the same if the bear was bundled up, half starved and dropped in the middle of Africa for the fight to be staged there? All of these would have affected the outcome), particularly as records show that when a mountain lion was pitted against a grizzly bear in Monterey, the lion won. Historical records clearly show that in the bull vs bear fights the bulls often had to be tethered by their legs to even the odds otherwise they would charge the bears at speed and gore them to death. In most instances the bears died of their wounds and there are very few cases of bears that were known cattle killers and which had better odds against the bulls. Also, breaking the neck of its prey is not at all unique to bears, as even very large prey of tigers often have their necks broken during the attack. That is a common strategy used by tigers for a quick kill, whereas lions tend to choke large prey with their jaws.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-10-2006 5:35 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by LudoRephaim, posted 08-10-2007 1:17 PM johhno has not replied

  
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