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Author Topic:   Why Etymology instead of the given English KJV translation ?
Eddy Pengelly
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 7 (114093)
06-10-2004 2:42 AM


I have recently been asked such things as
Taking a Greek or Hebrew word, making a simplistic translation into English, and the looking into the etymology of the English translation does not sound like sound reasoning to me. But really, since the Greek is there for all to see, there is no reason to belabor the issue...
and wish to reply in my own words before I present a summary of Ronald Pegg's methods.
Generally, religious rhetoric and philosophical interpretations, political expectations, and misinterpretations have somewhat changed the original words and context of the Bible, so that our modern English Bibles do not necessarily provide the intended original meanings of the accounts and related stories of such things as an encounter by a prophet with a 'messenger from God' etc.
Taking this into consideration, Mr Pegg has made an effort to find the original meanings of those ancient words, and to do this, he has utilized Strong's Concordance to seek out the etymology of the Old English words and the root meanings of the ancient Hebrew/Greek words.
One of the reasons he has done this is due to the fact, of which you may not be aware, that both the Hebrews and Greeks manipulated their languages to conceal 'hidden messages' within plain text sentences.
The Hebrews had a method they employed called "pardes". This is an ancient Jewish teaching from the oral tradition, which includes multiple interpenetrating meanings at the letter level of the text of the Torah. This involves a four-step method to progress from the easiest to the most difficult level to enable understanding of the ancient Hebrew manuscripts. These four steps are;
P. The simple surface meaning of the text;
R. Hints provided by variations in vowelization or word breaks;
D. parables that are at once true, yet not to be taken literally;
S. and the hidden layer.
eg. Hebrew word 1732 "DVD" has been concealed by the vowelization of adding an "A" and an "I" to the original three Hebrew letters to make it appear to read and sound as DAVID.
When this is decoded back to DVD along with the rest of the verse, the original message can be revealed - as seen in the original post.
When the Greeks subsequently used this word as 'David' the original meaning was lost. It may be hard to initially accept the DVD discovery, but being told for over 2,000 years that it only meant 'David' doesn't make it true or correct.
The Greeks employed an ancient encoding method now known as Green Language. It is multi-layered, and is rooted in the fact that words consist of far more than denotations. Sounds and verbal constructs are also utilized in the hidden meanings. In essence, the Green Language is a linguistic method of inducing hidden meanings into various words and phrases according to a system of arcane rules. It can make use of terms that lend a second, or even a third level of meanings to words or phrases.
After utilizing decoding techniques incorporating both of these methods, Mr Pegg has been able to use the "hidden" information revealed in ancient manuscripts to shed new light concerning some of the world's mysteries.
While the written Greek word "biblion" at the plain text level refers to a 'book, scroll, or other written document', the original messages that have been 'hidden' due to these ancient techniques have finally been exposed.
Let me quote many people's book of authority. Carefully read your Bible. Daniel was told that a book will be sealed up until the end times. A theme found in the Bible directly tells the reader 'to use wisdom' in order to understand the real meanings of the Bible's words. Twice in this Greek Testament it is stated, "in the Hebrew tongue" (Rev 9:11 and 16:16). Using wisdom and logically responding to this direct hint, it is apparent that we need to carefully check the Greek words that are formed from Hebrew origins.
Mr Pegg has done this, and has found the hidden layer of messages.
When I employed these decoding techniques on Revelations 5:5 (as Edward informed you in his post), I found that the original Hebrew word for the Greek word 'David' was just DVD.
Now for an overview of Mr Pegg's methods.
- - -
Ronald Pegg's search for the original meanings of biblical words
(Extract from Mr Pegg's Bible Mysteries Confronted booklet. Permission given by copyright owner to reproduce on this forum.)
quote
I personally want to know what other additions have been made to the original Bible’s words, and which parts of the Bible have been mistranslated and misinterpreted.
Mystery Four highlighted some of the differences between the ancient context of some words, and their modern translations and interpretations.
But I do not want you to just take my word for it. You need to prove it for yourself. (You need to ask questions.)
In the next section you will require a copy of The New Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible in order to understand, and to discover for yourself how the Old English Words of the King James Version Bible often do not reflect the original Hebrew (or Greek) meanings of the ancient scribes who witnessed something very special.
In the following Exercises I utilized the paper versions (not computer programmes) of these three publications;
Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible
This has been the standard Bible concordance for pastors, scholars, and laypersons for over a century.
It was compiled by Dr James Strong (in English) from the mid 1800’s and assembled without the aid of computers and based on the King James Version of the Bible.
It contains a Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary of the Old Testament, and a Greek dictionary of the New Testament. Each word from the KJV Bible has been given a specific reference number.
The concordance is like a dictionary; it gives the original Hebrew and Greek meanings of words.
Authorized King James Version of the Holy Bible
This was printed in 1611 (in English) and was a revision of the 1568 Bishop’s Bible (which itself was based upon the great Bible of 1539), and drew largely upon earlier versions such as Tyndale’s (c.1534).
Its scholarship was the finest that could be procured, and the result was as accurate a version of the then known originals as could have been made.
The word Bible is derived from the Greek biblia, meaning "books," and refers to the sacred writings of Judaism and Christianity. The Bible consists of two parts. The first part, called the Old Testament by Christians, consists of the sacred writings of the Jewish people and was written originally in Hebrew, except for some portions in Aramaic. The second part, called the New Testament, was composed in Greek and records the story of Jesus and the beginnings of Christianity.
The King James Authorized Version of the Bible contains 39 Books of the Old Testament, and 27 Books of the New Testament. The original ancient manuscripts did not contains Verses nor Chapters.
An Australian Dictionary
A Dictionary is an up-to-date survey of contemporary language. It places all vocabulary items in a single alphabetical listing. Besides the English meanings, foreign terms and idioms are shown and explained. Concise etymologies also pinpoint the origin of words.
Of special interest are the listings of homographic words. These are words with the same spelling as another but have a different meaning and origin. Pronunciation of a word is also indicated.
Some words have specialized meanings, and are labelled as such. For example;
Term _ Abbrev _ Meaning
Colloquial _ Colloq. _a characteristic of relaxed conversation or informal writing.
Archaic _ Archaic _a word or sense no longer in common use but still found in certain restricted contexts.
Obsolete _ Obs. _ a word no longer in use but found in earlier literature.
Dialect _ Dial. _ a word or meaning regularly used only in some geographical areas.
The following is a specific Procedure to see whether the Old English Words, as they appear in the Bible, fully represent the Hebrew meanings and contexts of the original ancient words.
Besides the discrepancies we found in Mystery 4, there has been a change in English language usage since the Bible was translated and interpreted by the Old English scribes in 1611. Many forms of expression have become archaic, and other words are obsolete and no longer understood by the common reader.
There are more than three hundred words in our modern English that have substantially different meanings to the original Old English words. I believe this is why contemporary religious scribes have missed recognising the Historical Events that are described in the Bible, as presented in Mysteries 1-3.
How can we personally verify that the Old English scribes have got it right (or wrong) ?
Method
1 _ Select a verse from the KJV Bible.
2 _ Find each word in Strong’s Concordance, and obtain its reference number.
For the Exercise on a following page, there is a list of words that I have already taken from the KJV Bible.
For this exercise I have only given the reference number for the associated word.
3 _ For Old Testament words turn to the Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary section.
(For the New Testament words you would therefore turn to the Greek Dictionary section.)
4 _ Locate the appropriate reference number.
5 _ View the meaning(s) of the word in question, and write it down.
6 _ Repeat steps 2 to 5 until the meanings of all the words are written down.
7 _ Read the original Hebrew [or Greek] meaning and context of your selected verse.
8 _ But sometimes the given meaning of an individual word may not be clear, or appear not to fit.
This is why you need to fully understand how to read Strong’s Concordance.
For step eight (and in any case) I suggest that you personally read the Read this first section for the Hebrew Dictionary in the How to Use the Hebrew and Aramaic Dictionary sections of the concordance.
For the Hebrew Words in the following Exercise, please check that the meanings I have presented are written in Strong’s Concordance against the given Hebrew Strong Number, and that the Etymology and/or English Dictionary meanings are also in context.
As you check through Strong’s Concordance you will notice that many Hebrew and Aramaic Words have several (if not many) meanings in English.
Which one do we use ? Which one is the original meaning or context ?
This is why it is helpful to know how to read the concordance. The information is there, but you must keep in mind the reason why you are doing this exercise. If you are just doing this to confirm the Old English scribe’s given meanings of the words, then that is exactly what you will find. You will be using their logic (and context), and may not necessarily discover the intended biblical context. You will be finding only what they assume to be correct.
Against each Word’s reference number, the concordance may give many meanings. These may include;
the etymology, root meaning, and common uses of the word, along with other important related details.
It is these other related details that will assist in locating the original meanings of suspect words (from step 8).
The important related details are cited in the Special Symbols section, and include;
+ .. a rendering of one or more Hebrew words in connection with the one under consideration.
X .. a rendering from an idiom peculiar to the Hebrew.
We are trying to establish the original meanings of the words, but the meaning of the same word may have a different context in a different verse in a different chapter of the Bible.
As you proceed [with your personal exercises later], ask yourself these questions for each and every word;
Question _ associated Comment
Is the given meaning of the Old English word correct ?_this is already questionable, so..
Is there only one meaning for the word ? _ Is it the root meaning ?
Has the word come from another related word ? _This gives the feel or context of the new word.
Does the etymology trace back further ? _ This gives a greater sense about the meaning.
Is the word a Hebrew idiom ? _ They knew what they meant, but we don’t yet.
Is the word Aramaic or of foreign origin ?_ It may be a number, written as a Hebrew word.
Does the given meaning make sense, and is it in context ? _ Check a dictionary for the English meaning.
Has the wrong English meaning been assumed ? _ Check for words that are Homographs or Synonyms.
Does the English dictionary say it is a special word ? _ Check for Colloquial, Archaic, or Obsolete words.
Does the English meaning come from a foreign word ? _ It could be Greek or Latin, or of special Dialect.
What did the Greek or Latin word mean ?_ Latin may give a closer feel to the meaning of the Hebrew word than our modern English.
How was the Latin word used and written ?_ It was this word they wrote to describe the Hebrew meaning, not our English equivalent.
With all these options, how do we make a decision ?
Most importantly, don’t make a judgement until all the words from the verse have been checked out. Most often you will have several words that have several meanings. You must then read each meaning in the context of the sentence to see which meanings associate with the other words. [This is a skill that is acquired over time.] Sometimes it is necessary to refer to the overall Theme or Context of the whole biblical chapter.
This is how I often make a decision when faced with choices..
Do I chose the given Modern English religious word that has been contrived over 2,000 years after the original Hebrew word was written, or use the stated Hebrew root meaning ?_: The root meaning.
Do I chose the given English religious word, or the stated etymology ? _: The etymology [mostly].
Do I chose the given English religious word, or a Latin word and its meaning (found through the etymology of the English meaning) ? _: The Latin word was spoken only 400-1200 years after the Hebrew word was written.
end quote
There are then several pages of exercises during which you discover and confirm for yourself that the Old English meanings of the Bible's words often do not reflect the Hebrew or Greek root meanings.
Many people seem to think that etymology is just playing with words, but as you may now understand or know anyway - the words in the English Bible may not necessarily portray what really happened in ancient times.
Various ancient reports of the 'Creation' such as found in the Old Testament in Genesis are actually reporting the sequence of images seen on the Ancients CD-Rom.
Some of Mr Pegg's work that provides the evidence for the negation of the Creation Myth include:
Bible Mysteries Confronted, booklet 5 plus its powerpoint presentation should be read and viewed first:
- Mystery 4, p15
- Exercises pp26-29
- Mystery 7, p30
- then the Confronted.pps
The Creation Myth powerpoint presentation should then be viewed next - Creation.pps
Then for a complete decoding of Genesis 1:1 to 2:4 see booklet 5, Etymology, p674
You will find these reference files on the http://www.pphcstudygroup.org.au web site in Downlaod PDF Books and Download PPS Shows in the LINK menu item of the Member's Area.
You should have been given this information before you read the "Book - Roll - Wheel - DVD" decodings that were posted by Edward earlier in the week.
You will now also find a new Introduction page for the PPHC Study Group web site that compiles all the similar descriptions from various ancient texts - to enable you to personally compare them with the sequence of images from the Ancients cd-rom.

  
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Message 2 of 7 (114396)
06-11-2004 9:27 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 7 (114637)
06-12-2004 4:05 AM


same as the other thread.
i too am using strong's concordance, and thoroughly believe in getting to the root meaning of the word. i do not trust any translation of the bible except my own, and even then i usually don't trust that as accruate. if you look earlier, i actually posted the original verse in question in greek, along with my own translation using the concordance. it's not that tricky to use.
however, in interest of fairness and honesty, its best to go straight from the original to modern language, and only one time. taking it from greek to english to old english to latin to english is going to result in distortions, such as changing the meaning of "writings" to "scroll" to "round" when other greek words would suffice for "round" in the first place. for a demonstration of why it's bad to go through multiple translations, here's part of your post:
"DVD" this 'digital is a flexible communication disk' simpler; one and simpler of the FILE of Rome of DIGITALIS one is written, special, if the end to say to an old person attemped that the small names had had this, that we considered those moneies 'wheel' it knows.
now, that's run through spanish, english, spanish, and then english again. i'm sure i can get it to do sillier things. but where's this business about rome come from? and file? and the elderly? kind of distorts it a little.
and if we are to apply pardes to christian texts, as i think we should, let's focus on remez and drush at least, which would indicate moral lessons and teachings, and symbolism. what you're attempting to do is squeeze something into a very literal, p'shat, reading of the text, and reassign words different meanings. if we are to read revelation with sod in mind, there's alot there about inner spritual matters, christianity in rome, etc, and the individual words hold meanings of their own.
i see no evidence of time travel, but some very nice symbolic meanings instead.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Amlodhi, posted 07-06-2004 1:46 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 7 (122329)
07-06-2004 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
06-12-2004 4:05 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Arachnophilia
i too am using strong's concordance, and thoroughly believe in getting to the root meaning of the word.
But be careful. Attributing the root meaning to a derivative of a word is usually considered a cardinal sin in translation. Most often the study is more complex than mix & match.
The same pitfalls can be seen in English. The word "incline" is from the Latin root "in- + clinare" - to lean. And yet, if I were to write to you that I was inclined to go to my friend's party, you would be in error to envisage me walking down the street tilted over at an angle.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by arachnophilia, posted 06-12-2004 4:05 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by arachnophilia, posted 07-06-2004 5:10 AM Amlodhi has not replied
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2004 3:04 PM Amlodhi has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 5 of 7 (122345)
07-06-2004 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Amlodhi
07-06-2004 1:46 AM


yes, i'm quite aware of that, which is why i took a lot of objection at eddy's posts. not only was he just taking the root meaning, but the meanings of the words the root was derived from. an even bigger no-no.
i areas of question, i try to look up other sources, see how else it gets translated, other uses of the word. truth be told, i don't really do much of anything myself. although i would really like to learn hebrew at some point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Amlodhi, posted 07-06-2004 1:46 AM Amlodhi has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3957 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 7 (127024)
07-23-2004 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Amlodhi
07-06-2004 1:46 AM


The same pitfalls can be seen in English. The word "incline" is from the Latin root "in- + clinare" - to lean. And yet, if I were to write to you that I was inclined to go to my friend's party, you would be in error to envisage me walking down the street tilted over at an angle.
for anyone to think that you were to be walking down a tilted street, they would have to be very stupid. lean is a much more complex verb than 'to tilt'. you should be more in control of your vocabulary. 'to lean' also meands 'to show proclivity to' or 'to tend towards (a something)' which is the true meaning of tilted actually... but it has the same idea as a political leaning or a dogmatic proclivity... to make the definition relevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Amlodhi, posted 07-06-2004 1:46 AM Amlodhi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Amlodhi, posted 07-23-2004 3:58 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 7 (127043)
07-23-2004 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by macaroniandcheese
07-23-2004 3:04 PM


quote:
Originally posted by brennakimi
for anyone to think that you were to be walking down a tilted street, they would have to be very stupid. lean is a much more complex verb than 'to tilt'. you should be more in control of your vocabulary. 'to lean' also meands 'to show proclivity to' or 'to tend towards (a something)' which is the true meaning of tilted actually... but it has the same idea as a political leaning or a dogmatic proclivity... to make the definition relevant.
Um . . yes, that is exactly the point I was making, brennakimi, all except for the "stupid" part. I'm not entirely sure what yours is though.
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-23-2004 3:04 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
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