Wanting to Believe

This is in response to Guidosoft (and Crash's reminder that I too have been wandering off topic again). Yes, of course I would. And much, much more to believe that someone dear isn't actually gone forever. I do understand the desire to belive such a thing, possibly better than many who actually believe it.But, as crash says, that doesn't make it true. In fact, we try to use approaches to learning about things that handle the problem that we all have certain desires about what the 'real' answer will be. So far we have the process of science to apply to many, but not all, things. While it isn't perfect and is often not applied perfectly it has done a better job than anything else anyone as thought of.It seems that one thing which we all have in common and which also divides us is the desire to believe one particular way. We all have these desires. Some of us fight them a bit better than others. None of us succeeds all the time. Some do seem to surcumb much easier than others.

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Common sense isn't

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But, as crash says, that doesn't make it true. In fact, we try to use approaches to learning about things that handle the problem that we all have certain desires about what the 'real' answer will be.

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I think it might be useful to point out that if our desires are the markers of what could be real, or should be real, then the same argument goes on continuously.So let's say we answer the question, "don't you want to believe that you could continue living?" with a "yes". Then isn't the next question "don't you want to believe that our next life is better?" Well... yeah!So does that mean that religions who have more desirable afterlife scenarios are more likely, or should be more desirable as the real religion, than others?Then we can ask about justice, about forgiveness, about whether reincarnation is preferable to a set "heaven"?Shall we craft all of our beliefs, including those regarding religion, based on what we desire most?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

However, Christ says Heaven is a place where we serve God. It does NOT fit each and every desire of everyone for example, that we cannot be married in Heaven.So - I don't think it's just " I desire it - so it's true "Do you see what I mean? (I'll explain if you want- I know I can be confusing).Ned - I bet you feel like you are twenty one years of age?

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Christ says Heaven is a place where we serve God. It does NOT fit each and every desire of everyone

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I agree with what you just said, and that is part of my point. If what you just said can be understood about the nature of Heaven/the afterlife, why does that also not hold true for Earthly life?To paraphrase your statement above, perhaps Earth is a place where we live and die and that is all, except for what we make of that life on Earth. It does NOT fit each and every desire of everyone, including the desire to live on past our physical being.In a way, what I am trying to show is that theists can come to understand how atheists feel about an afterlife, and how the question "wouldn't you want to have an afterlife?" sounds to them.While that's great to think about, that is not necessarily true, and we may be living in a reality that constrains that from being true.Hope that makes sense.[This message has been edited by holmes, 02-03-2004]

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Are you saying "heaven" to an atheist is only an unreality in your mind? - or a non-relevance because you only know what you can feel, hear, smell, see and taste, see I think I know what you're saying.I'm still confused But how old do YOU feel?I understand now you have said about living and dying - and I actually empathize, even a believer can ask or feel atheistic at times.[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 02-03-2004]

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Are you saying "heaven" to an atheist is only an unreality in your mind?

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Well yes and no. It may very well be a reality in your mind, and being an agnostic-atheist I admit there could be the reality of an afterlife.My point is that you cannot get at whether this is a truth or not, nor convince an atheist that it is anymore likely, by appeals to what they may want. It could just be wishful thinking, just as you acknowledged that people may have some wishful thinking about the afterlife (the nature of heaven in particular) which just isn't so.

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But how old do YOU feel?

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It depends on the day. Sometimes I feel so strong like I can lift anything I want to lift, but it never ends up being true. So why are my feelings of age any different?I should add that as far as feelings go, I have never felt one bit of empathy towards Xianity. While having been instructed in it, and studied it on my own, I have never felt any pull towards it. It feels foreign and generally hateful. The only times I have felt empathy with religion is in eastern texts and/or pagan beliefs. Not so much in their creation myths (when they have them) but in their description of how the world works.According to Buddhism I could very well be quite ancient, and yet new, depending on how connected I felt with my previous lives. Does that make Buddhism more viable than Xianity as a theory to you, because it fits with my experiences better?So I guess Xians have a real uphill battle with me. First they have to get me to overcome the realities that I see around me (which keep my wishful thinking in check), and then the feelings that I have within me (which alienate me from Xianity).

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I'm not going to be preaching to you then. I ask if you feel younger because of a belief I have.I can empathize with atheism because I have heard the explanation of why atheists think the way they do. Basically they deal with the natural and what they "see" kind of thing. Personally I DO understand where you are coming from, but I would honestly wish for you to be agnostic rather than atheist. I don't know much about Budhism and so must claim ignorance. It's a shame you feel Christianity is "hateful" - Personally I usually ignore a lot of church going folk, and ONLY have a faith/belief, so I basically listen to Jesus and no one else. I am guessing it was the more religious people that you are hateful towards? - And not Christs teachings?

Great post Mike. It is rare for a christian poster as yourself to say things like "I can empathize with atheism because I have heard the explanation . . .". I wish more people on here would follow your example, and more christians as a whole. Understanding a person's outlook is not the same as ascribing to their beliefs, as you have so plainly shown. Perhaps it is the "I am right, you will burn in hell" attitude that many find hateful in the christian faith, an attitude that Jesus never displayed, at least to my knowledge.Honestly, agnosticism for me is the better position. It is the position that science seems to take as well, acknowledging the possibility of a diety but very skeptical about the effects in the natural world.Just as an aside, I seem to remember that the idea of an afterlife in heaven was mainly a new testament theology. The OT talked about heaven but did not talk about Jews going there after they died. Is this accurate?

Loudmouth, I have a question for you. What exactly do you believe agnosticism is? I'm just curious. I've heard it goes something along the lines of "there may be a God but it doesn't really matter" I'm just curious.As a Christian myself there are struggles, life is by no means perfect. However, to say that if there is a God but he doesn't matter doesn't seem very rational to me. If there is a diety but he doesn't matter why would there be one at all?Just curious
God Bless

Smitty,Agnostic = A (without), Gnosis (knowledge). An agnostic believes that we don't have enough information to decide whether there is a God or not.Brian.

I would normally describe myself as an agnostic, believing that I do not have enough info to make such a judgement, and more importantly that there may never be enough info for ANYONE ELSE to know either. We just have our gut instincts, based on internal experience.In an EvC forum I was told that that makes me an atheist, of agnostic-atheist categorization. As long as no one gets me wrong and thinks I'm saying I KNOW Gods do not exist, I don't mind calling myself an atheist.But this probably will not help me with most Xians. Despite my admission I cannot KNOW Xianity is false, I am pretty certain (as certain can be) that that particular religion is not true.That probably won't bump into you though, since you are more of a spiritual than a religious Xian. By this I mean it sounds like you follow what sounds right to your internal compass, rather than believing everything has to be as the Bible or church leaders say.You hit it pretty much on the head with your assessment of my position. While I know many good Xians (even religious ones), there is an astounding amount of arrogance, ignorance, and hate (even if well hidden) which surrounds its mainstream practice.I actually have no problem with Christ's teachings. He's still a little down on humans and the human condition for my taste (so I don't agree with everything he says), but I can understand and accept much of how he says people should treat each other.Interestingly enough... and this is why I like Buddhism, because it says this same thing... one does not have to reject Christ's teachings just because one is not a Xian. All I do is throw away the mythologizing and concentrate on what is being said.Can't his ideas be held as important, even if he was not really the son of God?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Loudmouth, I have a question for you. What exactly do you believe agnosticism is? I'm just curious. I've heard it goes something along the lines of "there may be a God but it doesn't really matter" I'm just curious.

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Curiosity I can handle. Breaking the word down to its Greek roots (or Latin, I can't remember), a=none gnosis=knowledge. This means I have no knowledge of the presence or absence of a diety, nor do I have the ability to know what a diety is or how one behaves. This may sound cynical to some, especially Christians, but within this is an understanding that some people have found an understanding for themselves, which is fine. I am not out to win people to my worldview, just an understanding where I am coming from. In the long run, my agnosticism really doesn't affect my daily life. I choose to be moral and an upright citizen because it makes me feel better about myself. I never felt like denying the existance of a diety was a way to get around being "good", I try to do good because it is something I want to do.I have been exposed to religion in my life (first 22 years of it in fact) so this isn't coming from inexperience. This is just my personal philosophy. Hope this answers some of your questions.PS - Don't listen to people who say "ignorant" and "agnostic" come from the same root word, they are blatantly wrong. I have seen this go around in Christian circles before. Just a little pet peeve, .

Thanks Loudmouth, I try my best. Afterall God did say love those who are not like you or your enemy e.t.c.
I know evolutionists aren't such a strong term as enemy, but I find I end up loving them more than anyone else. Maybe it's cos you guys are so hard to reach. Concerning the point you make about an NT theology, certainly there is a lot more talk of the Kingdom of God there. Personally I think that's because the Kingdom arrived (with Christ) - Afterall, he was the first to enter it/conquer death. Oops I'm preaching again....

Yes, I mean that's your business really, I can't argue with your personal beliefs. (against my moral think tank). Well, honestly I think he is the Son of God, but those who adhere to his teachings are not the goats but rather the sheeps, any person (he says) who hears his words and does them - is founded on a rock. So cheer up, cos am prayin' for Sherlock tonight I don't know much about Budhism but what I've heard if it, I confess is only good things. Certainly I would have been Budhist if I lived over there.

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Maybe it's cos you guys are so hard to reach.

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And Jesus wants us hot or cold, not luke warm. I am no stranger to Sunday school, I know from which you speak.

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Concerning the point you make about an NT theology, certainly there is a lot more talk of the Kingdom of God there. Personally I think that's because the Kingdom arrived (with Christ) - Afterall, he was the first to enter it/conquer death. Oops I'm preaching again....

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Explaining theological stances is not preaching, IMO, but trying to convert people is. Your doing just fine.