why convince people you're right?

To the Evos here (or at least... to the agnostics)I've been in the pub tonight with some friends. got talking to a guy I know for almost a year now, discovered he's a xian (not a literalist, more of an old earth xian)
anyway.....got talking about the whole thing and ran through all the old arguments.There came a point where he was talking me through how he attributes all his good fortune to god, and how, in recent years he's had bereavements which have hurt, but feeling that the bereaved were with god, and with him spiritually, gave him peace, and strength.It was at this point, I lost the will to argue, I had no intention of or interest in taking this away from this guy. I guess maybe I saw that he needed to believe. and made me think of the xians here...My question would be, do you, as an athiest, or as an agnostic, reach a point where you don't want to take this away from a person?I know that on this forum the discussions are vehement and passionate. But really, what is your motivation on arguing for a no-god scenario? do you want to take this away from the believer? do you think sometimes you get caught up in winning the argument and maybe forget that your opponent needs their beliefs to exist in peace?tonight was a reminder that it is not my place to tell anyone what they should believe, rather it is my place to question in order to decide what I believe, and know when to stop questioning in order to protect others right to believe what they want.This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-30-2006 04:34 AM

I don't, I argue against misrepresentations and misunderstandings, and occasionally, propaganda. I have never argued against a theistic evolutionists point of view, indeed I've never argued with a creationist's belief about their religion. I might query the theological consistency of either side, if I fancy, but that's another issue.I argue against 'Evolution isn't a science' or 'there's no evidence for evolution' and so on. I don't argue for no God, I argue against "God must have dunnit".

I don't understand why you start with "a question to the evos" - many of the "evos" here are christians. ah.... this is a bit of a problem. Yes I (and I'm sure this applies to others here) have been involved in passionate arguments but that does not mean the same applies in real life. In actual fact, I cannot remember the last time I discussed religion with someone in real life. When the subject has come up, I've just say "well if it makes you happy more power to you!".I'm an atheist but it's not a faith, there is no requirement to "convert" anyone - so I don't. Here? because it's been a nice time filler in the past, in real life - not at all, because I don't. I'm of the English persuasion that religion is something for a person to keep to theirselves and not bother me with. The same applies to being an atheist. This is a pretty dodgy and loaded statement that needs further qualification. What happens if a believer thinks that their god(s) gives them the right to beat their child on a regular basis. You stop questioning because it's their right to believe what they want?Do you actually mean that it's their right to believe as long as that belief does not harm others?This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 30-Apr-2006 06:17 AMThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 30-Apr-2006 06:18 AMThis message has been edited by Charles Knight, 30-Apr-2006 06:24 AM

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I know that on this forum the discussions are vehement and passionate. But really, what is your motivation on arguing for a no-god scenario? do you want to take this away from the believer? do you think sometimes you get caught up in winning the argument and maybe forget that your opponent needs their beliefs to exist in peace?

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tonight was a reminder that it is not my place to tell anyone what they should believe, rather it is my place to question in order to decide what I believe, and know when to stop questioning in order to protect others right to believe what they want.

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In my mind there is a BIG difference between people discussing things in a forum specifically designed to debate such things in which people come and go strictly at their own free will, and spontaneous discussions with people I know or meet face to face.I am very reluctant to discuss my Agnostic beliefs (or lack thereof) with anyone in my day to day life and would never dream of trying to dissuade someone from theirs, just so long as they afford my beliefs the same respect I afford theirs.I had to set my sister to rights some time ago, once she found out that I was agnostic. She had begun to make little patronizing comments to me about how I must not have any morality because I didn't "believe in anything" and the like, and we ended up having a pretty heated discussion about how, instead of asking me about what I thought, she assumed a great deal and most of it was incorrect.

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My question would be, do you, as an athiest, or as an agnostic, reach a point where you don't want to take this away from a person?

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Who is claiming that I want to take anything away from anyone? It really doesn't matter to me what anyone believes.It is true that I believe that it is a fact that there is no god. And I do feel that most people are better off accepting facts, so in that case I do think that, when everything is added up, it would be better for people to accept the fact that there is no god. (Unless I am wrong, of course.)You seem to be implying that believe in a loving god and an afterlife is the only source of comfort for those who are bereaved or are experiencing other difficulties. It is possible to have belief system that is also a source of comforting that is not based on the belief in the existence of deities or an afterlife; and if there is, in fact, no god or afterlife it would seem to me to be a better source of comfort. Especially if, in an "opiate of the people" sort of way, they do not take obvious actions to alleviate or prevent sources of difficulties and bereavement because of their comforting belief in a deity. Of course, a time of bereavement is not the time bring all this up.However, whether there is or is not a god is, in the end, of such little importance that I can't get myself overly concerned whether or not someone else believes that there is a god. If someone believes that there is a god, it doesn't affect me in any way. (Of course, some people have social and political beliefs that do affect me; however, since believers in god have diverse and various political and social beliefs, and almost any set of social and political beliefs are held by believers as well as unbelievers, then these political beliefs are independent of their belief in god.)I mainly explain the reasons for my disbelief mostly as part of an exchange of viewpoints and opinions, as part of a dialogue to understand each other. Plus, sometimes the other person can pose some interesting intellectual dilemmas.It is usually people on the other side that feels the need to change mu beliefs, to make me conform to their ideas, and to take away my sources of comfort from me.

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

What makes you think we'd be taking it away?Don't you know how empowering it is to realize that there's no such thing as fate or destiny or "God's plan for your life", and all your choices are in your own hands? That you have total freedom to choose your own path?Don't you know how comforting it can be to realize that, just because your friend or your family member died in the arms of a different faith than you, they're not consigned to a burning hell of torment? The idea that atheism doesn't bring its own comforts is simply false. Self-preservation, largely. We all know the study about how atheists are the least trusted minority in America. I never bring atheism up first, not ever. But when someone shows up with their religion, and tells me that I have to convert or else, then their faith becomes open game. Why wouldn't it? Why wouldn't atheists have the right to counter-prosletize?

Chiroptera When my father died I spent some time alone in the woods and found that it was a great source of comfort. This was not because of a belief system but simply that I have always loved being in the depths of nature for the perspective it gives.
I realized in my time there that my father was never to return but that I had not lost anything other than my now lost chance to ask him things I now felt imoportant. I realized,therefore,that grief was a selfish thing we demand for ourselves due to our own sense of greed for attention. We seldom grieve the person and focus on the loss we think we have.My father once said that "when our time is up our time is up" so I realized that he was fully aware of this and was settled in his mind about the finality of life. I resolved in my time alone that I would honor my father by letting go and living.It cannot be successfully argued in my eyes that a belief system of any kind is necessary. It may,however, be sufficient.

Hi, sidelined.It has also occurred to me that for many evangelical Christians, they believe that most of their friends and relatives are going to burn in Hell forever. Where's the comfort in that?

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

Yeah, for sure. What I am highly critical of is literalist fundamentalism that condemns everyone else. And I see no point to rejecting science and rationality. But I've known lots of people whose faith supports them and gives them a caring attitude towards others and that is all to the good.I don't see any problem in believing in God until it becomes a political issue of correctness. Faith in God for some is not a support for living and loving but a way to be right and make everyone else wrong. Theirs is a hidden superiority agenda.lfen

Hi Creavolution. With regard to this question, I must agree with Modulus. As an agnostic, I do not go out of my way to rebuke or censure the God-fearing, but I try, with the little knowledge I have, to defend evolution from misguided and prescribed rigmarole; such as, "evolution is not science", etc. You have succinctly put into words what my tenuous intellect could not. I was raised Roman Catholic, and it wasn't until I had graduated from high school that the once opaque and impenetrable curtain of illusion was drawn.

Chiroptera Well I guess since the story as I understand it involves being forgiven of sins and the slate being washed clean the relatives and friends would just drag the closet skeletons out into the light of day again. Can't have that now can we?This message has been edited by sidelined, Mon, 2006-05-01 11:27 PM

By responding, I am not in any away stating that I am an atheist or an agnostic.My practice is to avoid discussing my personal religious views with any except my closest friends. Everyone else can be left wondering.I will sometimes discuss religious views or theological questions, but I do that from a disinterested position (i.e. taking an "objective" stance, and leaving my personal views out of the discussion).A person's religious views are up to that person. It is not up to me to persuade them one way or the other. However, I may try to correct misstatements (as about evolution and science, for example).Incidently, when a JW or LDS comes to the door to proselytize, I tell them that my religion is private and not open for discussion with them. It turns out to be a very effective response.

In your first line you state: You then go on talking about issues of belief, ones totally unrelated to Evolution or the Theory of Evolution.As I have said before:If GOD exists, She exists regardless of any evidence It does not exist.If GOD does not exist, He does not exist regardless of any evidence that He does exist.We live in a world with other humans and other critters with a finite pool of resources.One of my favorite desktops is a picture from one of the Pirelli Calendars. It is a subtle almost Escher-like composition of color and form. The universe we live in is all that we have. GOD, if she exists, is both external to that world and internal in every part of it. Our universe exists within GOD, IMHO.There is no reason that I can think of to convince the Theist that there is no GOD, or the Atheist that there is a GOD. If GOD exists, the Atheist will one day come face to face with that Reality. If GOD does not exist then the issue is moot.In the mean time, we all get to live this life in this universe.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Incidently, when a JW or LDS comes to the door to proselytize, I tell them that my religion is private and not open for discussion with them. It turns out to be a very effective response.

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Hmm. That sounds like a good one. I'll try it myself next time.

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"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

I have a sign that says"No politicians, no salesmen, no religious people, this means YOU".That generally keeps most of them away. The rest I set the dogs on.