bent strata

cloud_strife wrote:"I was just informed the other day that and I quote:"There is also evidence for bent strata of rock, which if there was
some warping in the strata that had been there for lots of years,
there would be cracked, not bent strata. This itself is evidence
that the warping took place very quickly before the rocks would have
had the chance to solidify. This evidence is in complete agreement
with the idea of a global flood."Does anyone have anything to say against this?? I'm not too informed
on strata."This sounds like the "Many strata are too tightly bent" textbite that various Young earth creationists repeatedly claim as an indication (evidence) of an Young Earth. In this claim, there are two types of folding being confused and conflated by Young Earth creationists. The first is soft sediment deformation, which did occur by the deformation of sediment while it was still soft. However, this type of deformation is typically limited to either within individual beds or sets of beds. The other type is the folding (bending) of sedimentary and other rocks that occurrs by deformation of solid rock. Young Earth creationists, either mindlessly confuse soft sediment deformation with or deliberately misrepresent it as being the same as the folding and deformation of larger thicknesses of folded strata, hundreds to thousands of feet, that occurs long after sedimentary strata has been lithified into solid rock. There are a variety of processes that bend (deform) solid sedimentary and other rock into folds. This is discussed in:1. "Lecture 8 Strain", PDF File.2. "Geol 456/656 Lithospheric Deformation" at:
Nevada Seismological Lab3. "Structural Geology Lectures 35-36 Models for Ductile Failure" at:
http://www.geosc.psu.edu/~engelder/geosc465/lect35.rtf4. "UNB GEOLOGY 1001 Lecture 12 - Deformation and Structures" at:
http://www.unb.ca/courses/geol1001a/lec-12.htm5."BRITTLE VS. DUCTILE ROCK DEFORMATION"
Geology • Beloit CollegeFor a detailed discussion, a person can look at:Davis, G. H. (1984) Structural Geology. John Wiley and Sons, New
York, 491 pp.orCurrie, J. B., H. W. Patnode, and R. P. Trump (1962) Development of
folds in sedimentary strata. Geological Society of America Bulletin.
vol. 73, pp. 655-674.(or any other textbook on structural geology.)Finally, a person can read "Claim CD510" (Rocks do not fold without breaking) at: CD510: Folded rocksIf a person closely enough at folded sedimentary rocks, which Young Earth don't bothered to do too often, he or she will find an abundance of evidence that the rocks were folded while lithified. The large-scale folds that a person finds within the Appalachian Moutains, Rocky Mountains, Alps, Himalayan, and other mountain ranges, all show features in outcrops that they were deformed while solid. These features included cleavage, jointing, rag folds, keystone grabens, kink banding, foliation, and so forth.Some examples are:1. "A slate quarry in Pennsylvania. Note the person in the
red jacket at the bottom of the image for scale. Photo is
courtesy of Dr. Stanley Finney, CSU Long Beach."
http://seis.natsci.csulb.edu/bperry/slatequarryStan1.jpg
http://seis.natsci.csulb.edu/bperry/ROCKS.htm2. Selected Natural Fracture Features
http://www.pe.utexas.edu/~jolson/nat.frac.htmlIt would have been impossible for the cleavage and fractures, illustrated above, to have developed had the rocks been unlithified when folded.Definite evidence that folded sedimentary rock was bent (deformed), while they were solid, can be seen in the deformation of pebbles, oolites, and fossils contained within them. If the sediments were folded while they were still soft the pebbles, the process of folding could not have deformed the oolites, pebbles, fossils, or other particles. The types of fossils deformed include the hard shells of invertebrates, i.e. clams, gastropods, corals, and so forth, and the bones of vertebrates along with other fossils. Soft sediment deformation instead of stretching these fossils, would have either not effected them or simply broken them up into numerous pieces. Particles such as pebbles and oolites would not have been affected by folding caused by soft sediment deformation. If a person finds deformed fossils, oolites, and pebbles in folded sedimentary rocks that have been stretched by the deformation, it is clear evidence that the sedimentary rocks were deformed while solid.This discussed in "Structural Geology Lecture 8 Strain Markers (Strain Analysis)" at http://www.geosc.psu.edu/~engelder/geosc465/lect08.rtf .Some documented examples of fossils deformed by stretching are:Beach, A. (1979) The analysis of deformed belemnites. Journal of
Structural Geology. vol. 1, no. 2, pp. 127-135.Bruton, D. L., and D. A. T. Harper (1992) Fossils in fold belts. Terra
Nova. vol. 4, no. 2, pp. 179-183.Cooper, R. A. (1990) Interpretation of tectonically deformed fossils.
New Zealand Journal of Geology and Geophysics. vol. 33, no. 2,
pp. 321-332.Diestler, K. A. (1997) Deformed trilobites and strain features from
the Metaline Formation, Pend Oreille County, Washington. Unpublished
Master's thesis, Washington State University. Pullman, WA.Engelder, T., and R. Engelder (1977) Fossil distortion and decollement
tectonics of the Appalachian Plateau. Geology. vol. 5, no. 8, pp. 457-460Engelder, T. and P. Geiser (1979) The relationship between pencil
cleavage and lateral shortening within the Devonian section of the
Appalachian Plateau, New York. Geology. vol. 7, no. 9, pp. 460-464.Hobbs, B. H. and J. L. Talbot (1968) The analysis of strain in
deformed rocks; a reply. Journal of Geology. vol. 76, no. 4, p. 494.Motani, R. W. (1997) New technique for retrodeforming tectonically
deformed fossils, with an example for ichthyosaurian specimens.
Lethaia. vol. 30, no. 3, pp. 221-228.Sdzuy, K. (1966) An improved method of analysing distortion in fossils.
Palaeontology. vol. 9, Part 1, pp. 125-134.Wellman, H. W. (1962) A graphical method for analyzing fossil
distortion caused by tectonic deformation. Geological Magazine.
vol. 99, no. 4, pp. 348-352.Some examples of stretched pebbles, which soft-sediment deformation cannot create, found in sedimentary strata deformed while solid rock are:1. metaconglomerateshttp://seis.natsci.csulb.edu/...etarock/METACONGLOMERATE.htm
http://seis.natsci.csulb.edu/bperry/metaconglhandsample2.JPG
http://seis.natsci.csulb.edu/.../metarock/metaconglStan1.jpg2. "Stretched pebbles in the Raft River metamorphic core
complex, Idaho." at:
Page Not Found | Structural Geology and Tectonics
Page Not Found | Structural Geology and Tectonics3. stretched pebblesFrom "Field_Camp_picts/"4. "GEO3Z03 STRUCTURAL GEOLOGY" This PDF
file has pictures of stretched pebbles at:
http://www.science.mcmaster.ca/...y/boyce/3z03/3z03_lec8.pdfand5. "Stretched pebble Conglomerate in the South Park
Member of the Kingston Peak Formation, Precambrian in
age." at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhaughy/FPGDV.JPG
http://home.earthlink.net/~rhaughy/ROCKS.HTMDocumented examples of stretched pebbles associated with folded strata are described and discussed in:Borradaile, G. J., and D. Tarling (1984) Strain partitioning and
magnetic fabrics in particulate flow. Canadian Journal of EarthSciences. vol. 21, no. 6, pp. 694-697.Burns, K. L., and A. H. Spry (1969) Analysis of the shape of deformed
pebbles. Tectonophysics. vol. 7, no. 3, pp. 177-196Chatterjee, S. R., and D. K. Sen Gupta (1984) Deformed pebbles from
Jamua and Kariapathar, Bhagalpur District, Bihar, India. Modern
Geology. vol. 8, no. 4, pp. 227-234.Gay, N. C. (1968) Pure shear and simple shear deformation of
inhomogeneous viscous fluids; 2, The determination of the total finite
strain in a rock from objects such as deformed pebbles. Tectonophysics.
vol. 5, no. 4, pp. 295-302.Gay, N. C. (1970) The analysis of strain in the Barberton mountain
land, eastern Transvaal, using deformed pebbles. Journal of Geology.
vol. 77, no. 4, pp. 377-396.Jerzykiewicz, T. (1985) Tectonically deformed pebbles in the Brazeau
and Paskapoo formations, central Alberta Foothills, Canada.
Sedimentary Geology. vol. 42, no. 3-4, pp. 159-180.Kumar, R., T. Okudaira, and M. Yoshida (2000) Neoproterozoic
deformation at a boundary zone between the Nellore-Khammam schist belt
and Pakhal Basin, SE India; strain analysis of deformed pebbles.
Gondwana Research. vol. 3, no. 3, pp. 349-359.Lin, C. W., and M. L. Huang (1997) The fractures and paleostress of
deformed pebbles in the conglomerates of the Toukoshan Formation,
Chiayi-Yunlin area. Journal of the Geological Society of China.
vol. 40, no. 1, pp. 281-297.Srivastava, H. B., and V. K. Gairola (1986) Strain analysis in the
basal unit of Delhi Supergroup in Kishangarh area (Rajasthan) as
deduced from deformed pebbles. Journal of the Geological Society of
India. vol. 27, no. 5, pp. 440-449.Xu, X., T. Ma, L. Sun, and G. Li (1996) Characteristics and formation
mechanism of superplastic stretched pebbles in the Huangshan ductile
compression zone in the Hami area, Xingjiang. Diqiu Xuebao [Acta
Geoscientia Sinica] vol. 17, no. 3, pp. 276-281.Yours,Bill Birkeland.[This message has been edited by Bill Birkeland, 04-02-2004]

In message 7, PaulK asked:"Do you have anything specifically on the deformation
of the Tapeats Sandstone caused by the Kaibab
Upwarp ? This is a specific example used by John
Morris of the ICR and while I am aware that some
of Morris' other assertions are untrue I have not
found anything specifically on this instance."Given that John Morris is actually an engineer, and not trained as a geologist, it is not surprising that he has significant problems in getting geologic facts and arguments correct. Unlike Austin and Snelling, Morris wasn't originally trained as a geologist and obviously has done an extremely poor job of teaching himself anything about geology. Some interesting comments along this line:"John Morris claims to be a geologist again."
1. http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199702/0134.html
2. http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199702/0137.html
3. http://www.asa3.org/archive/evolution/199702/0143.htmlIn URL no. 3 listed within the "John Morris claims to be a geologist again." thread, well-known evangelical Christian and geologist Glen Morton stated about John Morris:"John's Masters was concerned with building a tidal Dam
across the Bay of Fundy and referenced exactly 1 geological
book. His PhD dissertation concerned compressing coal dust
into pellets so it could be burned. It also references
exactly 1 geological reference. The degree was granted by
the engineering department, not the geological department."In the "Young Earth", John Morris's primary argument for the "Kaibab Upwarp", which technically speaking is properly called the "Kaibab Monocline", having been created by soft sediment deformation is based upon the lack of evidence of "great stress, e.g. elongated sand grains or broken crystals of cementing minerals", having been found within its folded strata. Morris argued that the lack of such "indicators of great stress" as Safari would call them, indicates that the strata deformed by the Kaibab Monocline (Kaibab Upwarp) were folded while soft and soon after deformation. In addition, he concluded from the latter interpretation, that about a half million years didn't occur between the deposition of the Kaibab Monocline and the formation of the Tapeats Sandstone.Contrary to Morris's claims about the Tapeats Sandstone, it and the other strata involved in the Kaibab Monocline (Kaibab Upwarp) all exhibit an abundance of prominent and well-defined internal deformation, faulting, and fracturing characteristic of the brittle deformation of lithified sedimentary strata. Only well-lithified, solid strata would have produced such features when folded. It is impossible for the Kaibab Monocline to have been created by soft sediment deformation. It is quite clear, that these sedimentary strata were well-lithified when the Kaibab Monocline was created. It also quite clear that for someone who claims to be a geologist, John Morris is remarkably deaf, dumb, and blind to what has been written about the Kaibab Monocline and to the physical evidence a person can find in field in making his conclusions.For example Mollema (1994), listed below, noted:"Four structural domains are defined from west to east across
the monocline on the basis of recurrent fracture assemblages:
(1) systematic joints at high angle to the monocline trend
and discontinuous joints at high angle to the systematic set;
(2) bedding plane faults and associated taft cracks;
(3) major faults striking parallel to the fold axis and
deformation bands; (4) a systematic joint set parallel to
the monocline and joints at high angle to the systematic set."Had the sediments been soft (unlithified) when folded, it would have been impossible for the systematic joints, deformation band shear zones, the discontinuous joints, synthetic and antithetic fractures, bedding plane faults, taft cracks, major faults, and deformation bands described above to have formed. Various studies, i.e. Cooke (1997), Cook et al. (2000), and Tindall (1999, 2000), listed below, clearly demonstrated that the strata comprising the Kaibab Monocline (Kaibab Upwarp), at the time of their folding, consisted of solid rock, not soft sediment, by the ways in which they deformed.In fact, John Morris is completely unaware of the fact that the Kaibab Monocline is cored a depth by a well-developed fault system. As a result, the Tapeats Sandstone, which lies directly on Precambrain basement, typically has been completely cut and displaced by the fault underlying the Kaibab Monocline and itself not monoclinally folded as are the overlying strata. The folding associated with the Tapeats Sandstone is no longer an unfaulted monocline, but now represents either drag deformation along the foot and hanging walls of the fault or the final stage of it being completely sheared by fautling. The folded strata directly overlying the fault are intensively deformed by fractures and minors faulting characteristic of the brittle deformation of solid strata.The typically faulted nature of the basal strata within the Kaibab Monocline, specifically the Tapeats Sandstone (typically the lowermost of the folded sedimentary layer), contradicts an observation made by John Morris in Back to Genesis (BTG) no. 35b of the ICR, which is titled "Is There Geological Evidence for the Young Earth?". This issue of BTG briefly mentioned an outcrop of Tapeats Sandstone that was "bent from horizontal to vertical in a space of 100 feet or so", which offered as proof that the Tapeats Sandstone was almost certainly still soft when bent" by soft sediment deformation. That other geologists have neither found folding undisturbed by faulting nor evidence of soft sediment deformation anywhere within the Tapeats Sandstone where deformed by the Kaibab Monocline, even within the Grand Canyon, suggests that Morris has grossly misinterpreted or greatly imagine what he saw.Unfortunately, despite the importance of this outcrop to his arguments, John Morris completely neglected to provide any specific documentation, not even an illustration, of this allegedly bent layer of Tapeats Sandstone in BTG no 35B. In this article, the location of this outcrop is given simply as "my favorite spot' and otherwise left as an undisclosed location somewhere in Grand Canyon National Park. However, being vague about the location of this outcrop benefits Morris' arguments greatly because, if other people can't find and visit this outcrop, they can neither dispute nor disagree with how he either describe or interpreted it. Thus, John Morris was free to describe and interpret it in any way that his imagination desires or thesis requires without any fear of being proved wrong by later study of this outcrop.Some references, including Mollema (1994), which document and describe deformation features and styles within the Kaibab Monocline that could only have been form by the folding of solid rock are:Babenroth, D. L., and Strahler, A. N., 1945, Geomorphology and
structure of the East Kaibab monocline, Arizona and Utah.
Geological Society of America Bulletin, vol. 56, pp. 107-150.Cooke, M. L., 1997, Predicting fracture localization in folded
strata from mechanical stratigraphy and fold shape: case study
of East Kaibab Monocline, Utah. International Journal of Rock
Mechanics and Mining Sciences. vol. 34, No.3-4, p.351.Cooke, M. L., Mollema, P. N., Pollard, D. D., and Aydin, A.
2000, Interlayer slip and joint localization in the East Kaibab
Monocline, Utah; field evidence and results from numerical
modelling. In Forced folds and fractures, John W. Cosgrove and
Mohammed S. Ameen, eds., pp. 23-49. Special Publication no. 169.
Geological Society, London.Cristallini, Ernesto O., and Allmendinger, Richard W., 2001,
Pseudo 3-D modeling of trishear fault-propagation folding
Journal of Structural Geology. vol. 23, no. 12, pp. 1883-1899.Mollema, Pauline N., 1994, The influence of structural position
and lithology on the fracture distribution in the East Kaibab
Monocline, SE Utah; implications for fluid flow properties.
Unpublished M.S. thesis, Department of Geology, Stanford
University, Stanford, CA.Reches, Z., 1978, Development of monoclines; Part I, Structure
of the Palisades Creek branch of the East Kaibab Monocline,
Grand Canyon, Arizona. In Laramide folding associated with
basement block faulting in the western United States, V.
Matthews, III, ed., pp. 235-271. Memoir no. 151. Geological
Society of America, Boulder, Colorado.Tindall, Sarah E., 1999, Monocline development by oblique-slip
fault-propagation folding; the East Kaibab Monocline,Colorado
Plateau, Utah. Journal of Structural Geology. vol. 21, no. 10,
pp. 1303-1320Tindall, Sarah E., 2000, The Cockscomb segment of the East
Kaibab Monocline: taking the structural plunge. In Geology of
Utah's Parks and Monuments, D. A. Sprinkel, T. C. Chidsey Jr.,
and P. B. Anderson, ed., pp. 1 -14. Publication no. 28. Utah
Geological Association, Salt Lake City, UtahQuillin, Michael Edward, 1983, A statistical study of fracture
orientation and spacing on the East Kaibab Monocline, Arizona.
Unpublished M.S. thesis, Department of Geology, University of
Oklahoma, Norman, OKAn ironic aspect of the claims by John Morris about the Kaibab Monocline (Kaibab Upwarp), is that 3 years after he got his Ph.D. at University of Oklahoma, another graduate student received an M.S. degree in Geology for research. His thesis, Quillin (1983), documented geological structures within the Kaibab Monocline that by themselves completely refuted Morris' claim about it formation by the deformation of soft, unlithified sediments. As listed in the above publications, the fact of the matter is that published research, i.e. Quillin (1983) and Reches (1978) had refuted John Morris' ideas about the formation of the Kaibab Monocline by soft sediment deformation before he proposed it in "Young Earth" and even before John Morris got his Ph.D.Yours,Bill Birkeland[This message has been edited by Bill Birkeland, 04-05-2004]

On 05-07-2004 and in message 19, gene90 quoted someone else"quote: An inspection of the actual field strata would
be a dead giveaway to which process is in fact occurring
would it not?"As discussed in previous posts of mine in this thread, a careful, detailed inspection of the folded strata would quickly determine whether they were folded while they were folded either while solid or still unconsolidated and uncemented.
Might want to look at:http://EvC Forum: bent strata -->EvC Forum: bent strata
http://EvC Forum: bent strata -->EvC Forum: bent strata"There might be secondary structures in the strata that
indicate fluid escape in soft sediment: ball-and-pillar,
dishes, flame structures, etc."Yes, there are sedimentary structures that clearly indicate that the sediment was soft when it was folded. They might include some of the above structures, which are more indicative of dewatering or loading of the sediment.Some pictures of soft sediment folding:1. Soft Sediment Folding 1 in Ridge Basin sediments2. Soft Sediment Folding 2 in Ridge Basin sedimentsThese pictures are from "Photos from the GEOL 142 Field Trip".Note how these examples of soft sediment folding are limited to a single, thin bed. Also, note how individual beds within the folds are often wildly distorted and broken up into distinct segments in a manner, which a person wouldn't see in the folding of lithified rock, as at Carbon Creek in the Grand Canyon, which John Morris falsely claims to have been folded while still soft. In fact, folding of the strata so mangles the layering with sediments that geologists initially called the ancient deposits of prehistoric landslides and slumps, where soft sediment folding often occurs, "wild flysch" because the wildly mangled nature of the sedimentary layers. Also, notice how, in case of the soft sediment deformation the strata above and below the folds are undisturbed by the folding.Other examples, of soft sediment folds1. Geological Field Camp - Geosciences 4606
http://www.utdallas.edu/dept/geoscience/pics/fldcmpE.jpg
http://www.utdallas.edu/dept/geoscience/fcfly.html2. Image Gallery - Flow Transport
http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/.../gallery/images/flo2.jpg
Image Gallery - Flow Transportgene90 finally stated:"But that seems unimportant to me. The first clue that
many folds aren't soft sediment deformation are that
they occur in igneous or metamorphic rocks."This is quite true. However, there are numerous features that can **only** form when lithied sedimentary rocks are folded. They include kink folding, cleavage, types of jointing, delamination of layers, Atilla faults, deformation banding, and so forth. When these are found in folded strata, they are absolute proof that the sedimentary layers were folded after they and become fully lithified. Detailed discussion of many these features and illustration and examples of them from the Kiabab and other monoclines in the Grand Canyon and elsewhere in the United States can be found in:1. Small Structures in S.R. MonoclineTYPES OF INTERNAL DEFORMATION IN THE SAN RAFAEL MONOCLINE by Kaj M. Johnson (PDF file)2. Kink Bands and Kink Folding3. Easy Guide to Kinks by Kaj M. Johnson, and Jeffrey D. Manuszak4. The Kink-wedge FoldThe Kink-wedge Fold PDF5. DELAMINATION OF FOLDED LAYERS BY LAYER-PARALLEL FAULTINGJohnson, Kaj M., and Johnson, Arvid M., 2000,
Localization of delaminated bedding in San Rafael
Swell, Utah and other monoclinal folds. Journal
of Structural Geology. vol. 22, pp. 1455-1468 (PDF file)6. PROPAGATION OF ATILLA FAULTS IN POROUS SANDSTONESPROPAGATION OF ATILLA FAULTS IN POROUS SANDSTONES PDF FileI know at least one fellow geologist, who has visited the Grand Canyon and been to the Carbon Creek / Carbon Canyon exposure, which John Morris uses as an example of soft sediment deformation of the Tapeats Sandstone in Tom Vail's book, "Grand Canyon: A Different View". From what he personally observed, I can confidently state that anybody who objectively examines the Carbon Creek / Carbon Canyon outcrop without being blinded by their preconceived notions of what he or she wants to find there, will find an abundance of different types of small-scale folding, faulting, fracturing, and so forth within the Tapeats Sandstone that could only have formed as the result of the folding of solidly lithified beds of sandstone. Any competent conventional geologist looking at that outcrop could find within 15 minutes enough evidence to soundly refute the claims that John Morris makes about the Tapeats Sandstone having been folded while still soft. I can only conclude that John Morris seems to be completely deaf, dumb, and blind to what the the Carbon Creek / Carbon Canyon outcrop has to tell him. (This is one reason he and other Young Earth creationists are held is such low regard by conventional geologists, the majority of whom in the United States are faithful and devout Christians).Unfortunately, at this time, I can't find any published references that specifically discuss the Carbon Creek / Carbon Canyon outcrop. However, it is only a very small side branch of the Kaibab Monocline (Kaibab Upwarp). An exposure of the main Kaibab Monocline (Kaibab Upwarp) occurs in Palisades Creek / Canyon, an outcrop, which John Morris conveniently ignores in his arguments. In that exposure, classic and other papers in structural geology, i. e. Reches (1978) and Johnson and Johnson (2000), have described in detail features within the folded and faulted Tapeats Sandstone at that outcrop that could only have been created by the folding of solidly lithified sedimentary layers comprising the Tapeats Sandstone. These papers soundly refute the claims made by John Morris that the Tapeats Sandstone was still soft when it was folded.References Cited:Johnson, Kaj M., and Johnson, Arvid M., 2000,
Localization of delaminated bedding in San Rafael
Swell, Utah and other monoclinal folds. Journal
of Structural Geology. vol. 22, pp. 1455-1468 (PDF file)Reches, Z., 1978, Development of monoclines; Part I, Structure
of the Palisades Creek branch of the East Kaibab Monocline,
Grand Canyon, Arizona. In Laramide folding associated with
basement block faulting in the western United States, V.
Matthews, III, ed., pp. 235-271. Memoir no. 151. Geological
Society of America, Boulder, Colorado.Some other web pages of interest:Stromatolite Fossils in the Hakatai Shale
A Day Hike from Phantom Ranch - Grand Canyon National Park
Rockhounds.comOverview of Grand Canyon Geology and Rock Formations
Rockhounds.comYours,Bill
Houston, TXThis message has been edited by Bill Birkeland, 05-12-2004 12:51 PM