On 05-07-2004 and in message 19, gene90 quoted someone else
"quote: An inspection of the actual field strata would
be a dead giveaway to which process is in fact occurring
would it not?"
As discussed in previous posts of mine in this thread, a careful, detailed inspection of the folded strata would quickly determine whether they were folded while they were folded either while solid or still unconsolidated and uncemented.
Might want to look at:
http://
EvC Forum: bent strata -->
EvC Forum: bent stratahttp://
EvC Forum: bent strata -->
EvC Forum: bent strata
"There might be secondary structures in the strata that
indicate fluid escape in soft sediment: ball-and-pillar,
dishes, flame structures, etc."
Yes, there are sedimentary structures that clearly indicate that the sediment was soft when it was folded. They might include some of the above structures, which are more indicative of dewatering or loading of the sediment.
Some pictures of soft sediment folding:
1.
Soft Sediment Folding 1 in Ridge Basin sediments
2.
Soft Sediment Folding 2 in Ridge Basin sediments
These pictures are from
"Photos from the GEOL 142 Field Trip".
Note how these examples of soft sediment folding are limited to a single, thin bed. Also, note how individual beds within the folds are often wildly distorted and broken up into distinct segments in a manner, which a person wouldn't see in the folding of lithified rock, as at Carbon Creek in the Grand Canyon, which John Morris falsely claims to have been folded while still soft. In fact, folding of the strata so mangles the layering with sediments that geologists initially called the ancient deposits of prehistoric landslides and slumps, where soft sediment folding often occurs, "wild flysch" because the wildly mangled nature of the sedimentary layers. Also, notice how, in case of the soft sediment deformation the strata above and below the folds are undisturbed by the folding.
Other examples, of soft sediment folds
1. Geological Field Camp - Geosciences 4606
http://www.utdallas.edu/dept/geoscience/pics/fldcmpE.jpghttp://www.utdallas.edu/dept/geoscience/fcfly.html
2. Image Gallery - Flow Transport
http://www.engineering.uiowa.edu/.../gallery/images/flo2.jpgImage Gallery - Flow Transport
gene90 finally stated:
"But that seems unimportant to me. The first clue that
many folds aren't soft sediment deformation are that
they occur in igneous or metamorphic rocks."
This is quite true. However, there are numerous features that can **only** form when lithied sedimentary rocks are folded. They include kink folding, cleavage, types of jointing, delamination of layers, Atilla faults, deformation banding, and so forth. When these are found in folded strata, they are absolute proof that the sedimentary layers were folded after they and become fully lithified. Detailed discussion of many these features and illustration and examples of them from the Kiabab and other monoclines in the Grand Canyon and elsewhere in the United States can be found in:
1.
Small Structures in S.R. Monocline
TYPES OF INTERNAL DEFORMATION IN THE SAN RAFAEL MONOCLINE by Kaj M. Johnson (PDF file)
2.
Kink Bands and Kink Folding
3.
Easy Guide to Kinks by Kaj M. Johnson, and Jeffrey D. Manuszak
4.
The Kink-wedge Fold
The Kink-wedge Fold PDF
5.
DELAMINATION OF FOLDED LAYERS BY LAYER-PARALLEL FAULTING
Johnson, Kaj M., and Johnson, Arvid M., 2000,
Localization of delaminated bedding in San Rafael
Swell, Utah and other monoclinal folds. Journal
of Structural Geology. vol. 22, pp. 1455-1468 (PDF file)
6.
PROPAGATION OF ATILLA FAULTS IN POROUS SANDSTONES
PROPAGATION OF ATILLA FAULTS IN POROUS SANDSTONES PDF File
I know at least one fellow geologist, who has visited the Grand Canyon and been to the Carbon Creek / Carbon Canyon exposure, which John Morris uses as an example of soft sediment deformation of the Tapeats Sandstone in Tom Vail's book, "Grand Canyon: A Different View". From what he personally observed, I can confidently state that anybody who objectively examines the Carbon Creek / Carbon Canyon outcrop without being blinded by their preconceived notions of what he or she wants to find there, will find an abundance of different types of small-scale folding, faulting, fracturing, and so forth within the Tapeats Sandstone that could only have formed as the result of the folding of solidly lithified beds of sandstone. Any competent conventional geologist looking at that outcrop could find within 15 minutes enough evidence to soundly refute the claims that John Morris makes about the Tapeats Sandstone having been folded while still soft. I can only conclude that John Morris seems to be completely deaf, dumb, and blind to what the the Carbon Creek / Carbon Canyon outcrop has to tell him. (This is one reason he and other Young Earth creationists are held is such low regard by conventional geologists, the majority of whom in the United States are faithful and devout Christians).
Unfortunately, at this time, I can't find any published references that specifically discuss the Carbon Creek / Carbon Canyon outcrop. However, it is only a very small side branch of the Kaibab Monocline (Kaibab Upwarp). An exposure of the main Kaibab Monocline (Kaibab Upwarp) occurs in Palisades Creek / Canyon, an outcrop, which John Morris conveniently ignores in his arguments. In that exposure, classic and other papers in structural geology, i. e. Reches (1978) and Johnson and Johnson (2000), have described in detail features within the folded and faulted Tapeats Sandstone at that outcrop that could only have been created by the folding of solidly lithified sedimentary layers comprising the Tapeats Sandstone. These papers soundly refute the claims made by John Morris that the Tapeats Sandstone was still soft when it was folded.
References Cited:
Johnson, Kaj M., and Johnson, Arvid M., 2000,
Localization of delaminated bedding in San Rafael
Swell, Utah and other monoclinal folds. Journal
of Structural Geology. vol. 22, pp. 1455-1468 (PDF file)
Reches, Z., 1978, Development of monoclines; Part I, Structure
of the Palisades Creek branch of the East Kaibab Monocline,
Grand Canyon, Arizona. In Laramide folding associated with
basement block faulting in the western United States, V.
Matthews, III, ed., pp. 235-271. Memoir no. 151. Geological
Society of America, Boulder, Colorado.
Some other web pages of interest:
Stromatolite Fossils in the Hakatai Shale
A Day Hike from Phantom Ranch - Grand Canyon National Park
Rockhounds.com
Overview of Grand Canyon Geology and Rock Formations
Rockhounds.com
Yours,
Bill
Houston, TX
This message has been edited by Bill Birkeland, 05-12-2004 12:51 PM