|
Author
|
Topic: The Right Side of the News
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
(2)
| |
| |
| |
|
Message 1465 of 5796 (851562)
04-28-2019 5:04 PM
|
Reply to: Message 1464 by PaulK
04-28-2019 2:55 PM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
Vox also deals with Faith’s argument.
Unite the Right was explicitly organized and branded as a far-right, racist, and white supremacist event by far-right racist white supremacists. This was clear for months before the march actually occurred. So by casting the rally instead as a sort of spontaneous outpouring from Confederate statue enthusiasts, Trump is rewriting history.
So by August 2017, when the Unite the Right rally was scheduled to take place, it was fairly clear that the organizers behind the rallies on behalf of keeping the Lee statue in place had a very specific ideological bent. That was clear in a police affidavit detailing who was expected at Unite the Right ” including roughly 250 to 500 Klansmen and more than 150 “Alt-Knights,” the military division of the Proud Boys.
In fact, going back through the promotional materials for Unite the Right, it is fascinating just how little the statue of Lee, or honoring Confederate veterans, seemed to matter to the organizers and attendees of Unite the Right, an event that, despite its name, had nothing to do with conservatism writ large.
The attendees of Unite the Right were crystal clear as to what the event was supposed to be ” not a show of support for history, but a “pro-white” activist event. Neo-Nazi Andrew Anglin described the upcoming Unite the Right rally as in a post on the neo-Nazi website the Daily Stormer on August 8, 2017:
quote:
Although the rally was initially planned in support of the Lee Monument, which the Jew Mayor and his Negroid Deputy have marked for destruction, it has become something much bigger than that. It is now an historic rally, which will serve as a rallying point and battle cry for the rising Alt-Right movement.
This is a transcript of the Trump interview in Faith’s video
TRUMP: I am not putting anybody on a moral plane, what I’m saying is this: you had a group on one side and a group on the other, and they came at each other with clubs and it was vicious and horrible and it was a horrible thing to watch, but there is another side. There was a group on this side, you can call them the left. You’ve just called them the left, that came violently attacking the other group. So you can say what you want, but that’s the way it is. REPORTER: You said there was hatred and violence on both sides? TRUMP: I do think there is blame - yes, I think there is blame on both sides. You look at, you look at both sides. I think there’s blame on both sides, and I have no doubt about it, and you don’t have any doubt about it either. And, and, and, and if you reported it accurately, you would say. REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville. TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group - excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.
And
No, no. There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly, the taking down the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people, neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call ’em. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest
As the article points out the protest the “night before” was a torchlit march, chanting slogans like “The Jews will not replace us” and the Nazi “Blood and soil”. The article concludes
We also have the transcript and video of how Trump responded. He did, indeed, refer to the people who attended Unite the Right, people who were likely well aware of and supportive of its messaging, as “very fine people,” and he downplayed the tiki torch parade as “people protesting very quietly.”
This was basically the point I was making but the article has a lot more detail and evidence - beyond what I’ve quoted here.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1464 by PaulK, posted 04-28-2019 2:55 PM | | PaulK has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1466 by Faith, posted 04-28-2019 6:46 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 1468 of 5796 (851569)
04-29-2019 12:06 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1466 by Faith
04-28-2019 6:46 PM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
What you read and what Trump said are apparently two different things
No. You just refuse to see the point. The fact is that Trump supported the Unite the Right protestors - and White Supremacy was the main point of their protest. Trump could not defend that protest without defending White Supremacists. That Trump tried to whitewash the protest - to the point of calling marchers chanting anti-Semitic and Nazi slogans a “very quiet” protest aimed at retaining the statue only emphasises the point.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1466 by Faith, posted 04-28-2019 6:46 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1471 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 5:39 AM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 1472 of 5796 (851573)
04-29-2019 5:50 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1471 by Faith
04-29-2019 5:39 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
TRUMP SUPPORTED NOBODY BUT PEOPLE HE THOUGHT WERE THERE TO PROTEST AGAINST PULLING DOWN HISTORICAL MONUMENTS...
And those people were White Supremacists there to attend a White Supremacist rally, with the statue a secondary issue.
quote:
THE SUBJECT HERE IS NOT SOME LIST YOU FOUND OF WHO SAID THEY WERE THERE, BUT WHAT TRUMP THOUGHT AND SAID. HIS IMPRESSION WAS THAT THERE WERE WHITE SUPREMACISTS AND LEFTIST ANTIFA THERE WHO WERE VIOLENT AND WHOM HE CALLED "BAD PEOPLE," AND OTHER PEOPLE THERE PEACEFULLY PROTESTING ON BOTH SIDES OF THE HISTORICAL ISSUE OF PULLING DOWN
In other words Trump’s “perfect” answer confused the issue by talking about imaginary people. Perhaps you could explain how Trump could get it so wrong and why he’s still wrong, even now.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1471 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 5:39 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1473 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 5:57 AM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 1474 of 5796 (851575)
04-29-2019 6:03 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1473 by Faith
04-29-2019 5:57 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
THAT WAS NOT HIS IMPRESSION AND HIS IMPRESSION IS WHAT COUNTS IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HIS POINT OF VIEW. BUT ALL YOU CARE ABOUT IS FINDING A WAY TO SMEAR HIM AND THAT TAKES IGNORING HIS POINT OF VIEW.
I would hope that the President of the United States would be better informed - and willing to correct his misstatements instead of strongly endorsing them.
quote:
HE WAS WATCHING IT APPARENTLY ON TV AND THAT WAS HIS IMPRESSION AND FOR YOU TO INSIST HIS IMPRESSION WAS WRONG IS THE PROBLEM. WHAT IF IT WAS, AND I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS, IT'S JUST YOUR DESIRE TO MAKE HIM OUT TO BE WRONG. BUT IF HE WAS IT WAS STILL HIS IMPRESSION WHICH IS SUPPOSEDLY THE TOPIC HERE AND THAT MAKES YOU WRONG.
Then he ought to know that the “very quiet” protest involved chanting anti-Semitic and Nazi slogans. I did. And the evidence is quite clear that “Unite the Right” was a White Supremacist rally, they were the people with the permits and if Trump confuses the issue - as you are claiming - by getting things badly wrong then he has a serious problem.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1473 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 5:57 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1475 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 6:15 AM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 1477 of 5796 (851578)
04-29-2019 6:55 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1475 by Faith
04-29-2019 6:15 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
But I am not changing the subject. You claim that Trump confused the issue by defending imaginary people. And presumably you are blaming right-wing media for Trump’s mistake when you say he got his ideas from TV coverage. (Although Trump should certainly get a proper briefing from his staff instead of relying on any media before making public pronouncements.) If you offer a defence of Trump it is part of the discussion and you do not get to declare it off-limits by claiming that it is a “change of subject”.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1475 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 6:15 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1478 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 7:10 AM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 1480 of 5796 (851581)
04-29-2019 7:19 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1478 by Faith
04-29-2019 7:10 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
tRUMP CONFUSED NOTHING. THE IMAGINARY PEOPLE ARE YOUR INVENTION
So when he talked about “very fine people on both sides” he knew that one of the sides was a White Supremacist rally ?
quote:
HE WS REPORTING ON WHATEVER HE SAW,
Then how come he “saw” people chanting anti-Semitic and Nazi slogans as a “very peaceful” and not at all Nazi protest ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1478 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 7:10 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1481 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 7:27 AM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 1483 of 5796 (851584)
04-29-2019 7:34 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1481 by Faith
04-29-2019 7:27 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
OBVIOUSLY HE DIDN'T SEE THAT YOU BLITHERING IDIOT.
If you get things wrong, it isn’t me who’s the “BLITHERING IDIOT” Trump said there were “very fine people on both sides”. One side was a White Supremacist rally. If he wasn’t talking about White Supremacists he can’t have been talking about anybody who existed, could he ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1481 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 7:27 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1484 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 7:48 AM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 1486 of 5796 (851587)
04-29-2019 8:02 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1484 by Faith
04-29-2019 7:48 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
What a typical lying Leftist shyster you are. HE COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT WHITE SUPREMACISTS AS "FINE PEOPLE" AS HE MADE ABUNDANTLY CLEAR MORE THAN ONCE IN THAT VIDEO.
I realise that rational argument is difficult for you but you really should try properly thinking about things instead of shouting abuse. If Trump was not referring to White Supremacists then - since the people actually on one side were attending a White Supremacist rally - he must be referring to people he imagined to exist. So you are the one claiming that Trump was talking about imaginary people. I guess that makes you the “BLITHERING IDIOT” for not even understanding your own excuses.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1484 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 7:48 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1487 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 8:21 AM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
|
|
Message 1488 of 5796 (851592)
04-29-2019 9:13 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1487 by Faith
04-29-2019 8:21 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
He was referring to what he saw, period.
Really ? How can you see that someone isn’t a White Supremacist?
quote:
If his impression doesn't fit with your definitions, so much for your definitions.
What definitions ? I think you mean the FACTS. Or at least the fact that one side was a White Supremacist rally.
quote:
We are talking about what he thinks and believes, not your definitions.
No, we are talking about the fact that the thoughts and beliefs you attribute to Trump are at odds with the reality of the situation in Charlottesville - and why that is the problem here.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1487 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 8:21 AM | | Faith has not replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 1498 of 5796 (851605)
04-29-2019 2:22 PM
|
Reply to: Message 1496 by Faith
04-29-2019 2:16 PM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
Ah. Caliing us “cockroaches”. Where have I heard that before ?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1496 by Faith, posted 04-29-2019 2:16 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 1532 of 5796 (851694)
05-01-2019 12:30 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1528 by marc9000
04-30-2019 8:01 PM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
This is very telling about today's Democrat party. Do you know what Lee's views were on slavery?
He wasn’t exactly happy to see it ended.
quote:
quote:
Lee held slavery to be an evil institution
and;
quote:
Lee in his well-known analysis of slavery from an 1856 letter called it a moral and political evil.
Robert E. Lee - Wikipedia
Those quotes are rather misleading. Here they are in context:
Several historians have noted the paradoxical nature of Lee's beliefs and actions concerning race and slavery. While Lee protested he had sympathetic feelings for blacks, they were subordinate to his own racial identity.[76] While Lee held slavery to be an evil institution, he also saw some benefit to blacks held in slavery.[77] While Lee helped assist individual slaves to freedom in Liberia, and provided for their emancipation in his own will,[78] he believed the enslaved should be eventually freed in a general way only at some unspecified future date as a part of God's purpose.[76] Slavery for Lee was a moral and religious issue, and not one that would yield to political solutions.[79] Emancipation would sooner come from Christian impulse among slave masters before "storms and tempests of fiery controversy" such as was occurring in "Bleeding Kansas".[76] Countering southerners who argued for slavery as a positive good, Lee in his well-known analysis of slavery from an 1856 letter called it a moral and political evil. While both Robert and his wife Mary Lee were disgusted with slavery, they also defended it against Abolitionist demands for immediate emancipation for all enslaved.[80]
And a quote from the letter to provide more context for the second quote:
n this enlightened age, there are few I believe, but what will acknowledge, that slavery as an institution, is a moral & political evil in any Country. It is useless to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence.
quote:
Let me guess, you don't care. All the civil war was, was a fight between those who loved slavery and those who disagreed with it, and that's the end of it as far as you're concerned, right?
No, the American Civil War was primarily a fight between those wishing to preserve slavery versus those wishing to preserve the Union. And I note that you don’t seem interested in accurately presenting Lee’s views.
quote:
If you don't care about any of this, if you just close your eyes and hold your ears and call him a racist, then what you're doing is calling pretty much half of the U.S. racist, as it was 155 / 160 years ago. Does that mean the ENTIRE U.S. was racist in 1820, or 1830? As Trump referred in the video Faith put up a few dozen messages back, does that mean George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were racists too, since they owned slaves?
Who says that I called him racist for his position on slavery? This is the real reason:
Lee accepted "the extinction of slavery" provided for by the Thirteenth Amendment, but publicly opposed racial equality and granting African Americans the right to vote and other political rights.
But I guess you don’t care about that,
quote:
Trump and other Republicans often claim how much they love and respect their country. But when liberals claim they do as well, it just doesn't go along with the disrespect they show for it's history and it's prominent historical figures.
Loving your country doesn’t mean loving every prominent person in its history.
quote:
The point of all this? There really were "fine people" in Charlottesville defending the statue, and Trump really wasn't a racist by saying it.
In other words you agree - you think that racists become “very fine people” if they stand up for the statue of a racist who fought for slavery. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given. Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1528 by marc9000, posted 04-30-2019 8:01 PM | | marc9000 has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 1537 of 5796 (851711)
05-01-2019 3:17 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1535 by Faith
05-01-2019 3:10 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
Trump wasn't defending racists.
I wasn’t talking about Trump - in that post. But the people attending the Unite the Right event were racists and if Trump wasn’t defending them, who was he defending ? Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1535 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 3:10 AM | | Faith has not replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 1538 of 5796 (851713)
05-01-2019 4:07 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1536 by Faith
05-01-2019 3:15 AM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
...it is hard to avoid personalizing it when so much hate is coming at me as you have been pointing out.
See Message 1434 and your reply Message 1435 And let us note that there is still no evidence of any substantial grouping of “non-White-Supremacists” at the Unite the Right rally, nor even a good reason why such people would want to attend a White Supremacist event.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1536 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 3:15 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1545 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 1:27 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 1547 of 5796 (851733)
05-01-2019 1:50 PM
|
Reply to: Message 1545 by Faith
05-01-2019 1:27 PM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
And again let us note that your evidence is utterly irrelevant to the fact that Trump clearly identified people who are not white supremacists as "fine people" on the side of preserving historical monuments.
That is a diversion from the point. The point is that you called me a “LYING CREEP” - twice in a two-sentence post - for saying that there was no such group. So far from you “getting angry at all the lies” you get angry and call people liars for saying things you don’t like.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1545 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 1:27 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1548 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 1:54 PM | | PaulK has replied |
|
PaulK
Member Posts: 17828 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.5
|
|
|
Message 1549 of 5796 (851735)
05-01-2019 2:00 PM
|
Reply to: Message 1548 by Faith
05-01-2019 1:54 PM
|
|
Re: The fake news about Charlottesville answered again
quote:
I'm sorry if I called you that for such a reason.
Thank you for surprising me. Perhaps you could get around to apologising for all the other similar instances in this thread. And a general apology for the many past incidents.
quote:
I should have called you that for putting words in Trump's mouth which are your own opinion and not his.
Since I haven’t done that - certainly not knowingly - I don’t think you should do that either.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1548 by Faith, posted 05-01-2019 1:54 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2
