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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's a pretty poor analogy. Are you suggesting that there are private messages in the Bible for different people?
Things That Differ writes:Studying the Bible dispensationally may seem confusing at first but actually it dispels confusion, explains difficult problems, reconciles seeming contradictions and lends power to the believer's ministry. If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly in one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must "rightly divide" the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail to him. It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.(...)...we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why... Phat writes:
So He doesn't even pretend that there's a point to His existence? ringo writes:
Last time I asked Him, He said something to the effect of "I AM that I AM." So your Open Deity has no effect on the world. Then what's the point of His existence?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
Bring 'em here. Thing That Differ Browse it...he has some scriptural arguments....And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You think about it. You keep claiming there's a point to God's existence. Why do you when He doesn't? ringo writes:
Think about it. Should He have to? So He doesn't even pretend that there's a point to His existence?And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, you're the one who said that God doesn't even try to justify His own existence. Isn't that Deistic? That's too Deistic for me.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You tell me. You're the one who keeps trying to justify His existence.
Why would God have a need to justify His existence to anyone? Phat writes:
And for all practical purposes, that's what we have. A Deistic god is no different than a living universe, for all practical purposes.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's what the evidence shows. God has not fixed everything in your life. My question is why you feel as if we must grow up and fix everything ourselves...And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
That's what I've been trying to tell Phat for years. "Believing" in Jesus is far more than just believing that He existed. Or, the Name of Jesus has depths to it way beyond a mere name.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
And yet Matthew 12 sounds very much like the God who orders genocide, who decides arbitrarily what is good and what is evil. I suggest that by understanding the Bible in such a way that has God ordering genocide and calling it good, or when we talk about the rejection of our neighbours of other faiths etc, that we just might be on the wrong side of the point that Jesus makes in Matthew 12.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
You and I have a different idea of what "objective" means. What you call objective, I would call absolute - and I agree that IF there is absolute truth, we can not discover it. What I call objective is more like a consensus based on evidence. With no evidence, no objectivity is possible.
I believe that there actually is an objective truth in answer to your question; however as humans we can only come up with subjective conclusions. GDR writes:
Yes, I agree that we all have an internal conflict between two evolutionary "goals" - individual survival and group survival. But that has nothing to do with what you quoted. I seems to me that at one end we have the Golden Rule — do unto others as you would have them do unto you. The other end might be looking out for number one or maybe if it feels good do it. I said that Matthew 12 seems to agree more with the Old Testament God than with your sanitized God who can do no wrong.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
GDR writes:
Yes, so the overall picture is of a flighty God.
Firstly I'd like to say that there is also considerable evidence in the OT of a loving god, although there are accounts of a vengeful god as well. GDR writes:
What you call "progressive revelation" I would call progressive sanitization.
As I have said before I believe that through the Bible we have a progressive revelation of God climaxing in Jesus where we can see Him fully. C.S. Lewis writes:
I think that is one of the stupidest statements ever made in the English language. Nobody would make that choice.
All that are in Hell, choose it. GDR writes:
It's more like disagreeing with God about what's good and what's evil. The God of the Bible can't make up His own mind about what's good and what's evil. Any human being can see that allowing a place like Hell to even exist is evil.
As I said before we blaspheme the Holy Spirit by calling good evil and/or evil good. GDR writes:
Which is why I say that Matthew 12 reflects the Old Testament. A loving God would forgive. A loving parent forgives whether the child wants forgiveness or not. Matthew 12 is saying that there won't be forgiveness.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
But there's no reason to think that. God may have remained constant but His image was sanitized by believers who recognized that humans are more moral than their God. As long as hell exists there is no possibility of a loving God.
Like I said it is a progressive revelation where the understanding slowly became more and more focused until it became perfectly focused in Jesus. GDR writes:
I don't think any parent would give them that choice. Note the story of the prodigal son. The children might go out the door but it's always open for them to come back. If a child says to his/her parent that they want nothing more to do with them, do you think that they shouldn't be allowed that choice.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
If you found absolute proof that the way you were living now would send you to a lake of fire sometime in the future, would you do what you needed to do to change course or would you challenge the authority of the law that sent you there?Phat writes:
Let me turn that question back on you: If you found absolute proof that protecting Jews would send you to a concentration camp, would you do what you needed to do to change course or would you challenge the authority of the law that sent you there? So if I asked you the same question I asked Stile above, what would you do? Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given."I'm Fallen and I can't get up!"
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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GDR writes:
So that is them sanitizing their view of God and you arbitrarily choosing the sanitised version.
The Jews of the OT were subject to many influences. They worshiped Yahweh, celebrated the Exodus but at the same time they were almost endlessly suffering at the hands of their more powerful neighbours. Their vision of God was one who would with their help or not overpower their enemies.Slowly however, their understanding of God evolved into a more loving God... GDR writes:
If you're saying that God had a change of heart since the genocidal Old Testament, that's one thing, but it doesn't give you an excuse to claim that the "true nature" of God is a loving one. However a parent has to give them freedom to make their choice in the first place, which doesn't negate a change of heart. As long as everlasting punishment exists - and it doesn't matter whether you think about it or not - as long as it exists, the idea of a loving God won't fly.
GDR writes:
I'm using the Bible to make every point to you. You're the one who is avoiding the Bible and using C.S. Lewis as an apologist. ... you even used the Bible to make your point.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's your apologists lying to you. There is no "enemy". What kind of puny god could have enemies?
... you believe that humans somehow know better than the God of the book. This sort of argument is a lie of the enemy. Phat writes:
No you don't. You never use evidence in these debates. You constantly ridicule evidence.
I have enough evidence to fuel these debates with you. Phat writes:
We know better than to kill millions with a flood. We know better than to kill every firstborn child in Egypt. Your "challenge" is pretty lame. All I am doing is challenging your daft idea that humans know better than any God character thus far.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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ringo Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
ringo does that whether Hell exists or not.
And if hell didnt exist, there would always be the possibility that ringo would grow up, leave home, and do what he thought was right even if he never acknowledged that he had a father who taught him. Phat writes:
But that didn't happen. And if it did happen, a lake of fire would not be a necessary place to stay.
Its the kids who were living at home and were evil and got booted out of the house that makes a need for a place for them to stay. Phat writes:
That's more of a reflection of the rehabilitator than of the child. You portray a God who's utterly helpless.
Imagine a kid who was beyond rehabilitation. Phat writes:
A lake of fire. That notion is just disgusting. What a vile, ugly Father you portray. God created a place they could all stay if they refused to repent and acknowledge Dads authority (and love). Edited by ringo, : Malfunctioning sHift key and/or finger.And our geese will blot out the sun.
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