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Author | Topic: A Way to Think About Free Will and God: Open Theism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: You cant have it both ways. Everything in the book, according to a skeptic, is ancient scribes writing about God dealing with the people of that time. As far as I'm aware everyone agrees that the bible was written by people writing about god at that time.
If God exists and is involved at all, the accounts of His commands to the people were written down by the scribes of those same people. Not to mention that only the scribes of the victorious people had any input into the written record. Yes, and?
It would be much the same in today's world. US Armed forces go to Iraq. Stated objective: Get Iraq out of Kuwait. Scribes=Associated Press. No it wouldn't. In todays world we have the world's press and the international court of human rights, NATO and a myriad of other global bodies watching and recording.
Some see the God of radical Islam similar to a monster under the bed. If you mean it's totally imaginary, I agree.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Nobody wants to be on the losing side. That's an understatement. At least in 'humane' warfare there IS a losing side. In god's warfare he approves of and promotes mass annihilation and genocide.
But getting back to a God of Open Theism, such a God would allow His "One Nation Under God" to do exactly what it wanted to do based on the powers which its people gave to their leaders. Right, almost as if he didn't exist you mean?
Killing the children off as well prevented them from becoming sworn fighters against Israel later on as they grew up. Let's be clear here, you think this is ok?
Whether God is mentioned in the equation or not, the behavior of the people is the same. A God of Open Theism would allow that. Yeh, like I say, almost as if he didn't exist isn't it?
Faiths God would be angry at His people if they disobeyed a direct order. The tricky bit is that Faith's god is your god. She just reads the words, you re-interpret the words to make them not mean what they say. It's difficult for you because the words are explicit, they don't lend themselves to 'interpretation' do they?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: If) God exists God exists regardless of any evidence, lack of evidence, theory,or speculation regarding His existence. If God does not exist, God does not exist no matter what claims are made about an inerrant Bible, the behavior of believers, or any evidence to the contrary. I fail to see why you find that impressive - it's a statement of the blindingly obvious that moves no-one nowhere.
I happen to believe that God does exist, Yeh, but you're not a Deist, you're a Christian so you are required to believe what is said in the bible. But the bible says stuff you absolutely don't believe is right and moral - I hope.
Jar simply brought up the point that God may exist and that no evidence can refute that fact. Sure, but why is that not really obvious?
To be fair, jar also brought up the belief that God may not exist. You as an atheist don't even give it all much thought. The whole angels on a pin sort of thing. Yup. But god existing and not existing is the same thing. No one knows nor can know.
In the context of the Great Debate, ICANT and I are in fact talking about the same God. We are discussing the belief and the philosophy. You are free to counter that with any philosophy that you have...even if you claim it to be factual and evident. That's why we all have these debates. That's fine but if all you're going to do is sit at the feet of the master, you're wasting your nervous energy.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: IF God existed, would you bother sitting at His feet So long as he's not that nightmare of a god in your book, sure. A real god with real moral values would be a pretty cool dude.
or would you attempt to mess with His head? If that was possible he's no god.
As for wasting time, that's up to the discretion of the individual. Today happens to be my day off, so I enjoy "wasting time" on the computer. What do you do on your day off? You seem to be here at the forum a lot as well. For me it's a trivial hobby, for you it seems more like life, death and your soul. I worry for you.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: In my opinion, God would have had no need to order anything. He could have simply done it Himself. The fact that it was reported that God ordered the action seems to mean that someone killed them and blamed God for the action. If God wanted me dead, you would see the coroner pulling up within a day or two. And yet here it is:
quote: Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Quite obviously human writing All of the bible is human writing isn't it?
and opinion/belief on what God could would or should do. They are making it up. I agree they're making it up. As is the rest of the book. But tell me, how much of the bible would remain if everything not actually reported as verbatum God was removed?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
So now we have it that when anyone but god is speaking directly we can consider it as men making stuff up. And what is being said is intended for an audience of 1st century Jews - or earlier - and is therefore not for us. Committing genocide was ok then but not now.
So what we have here is an unreliable book that was written for, and to be understood by, stone age people. with moral values that flex over time. Right, so much for the universal word of god.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Two fictional books don't make a non-fictional book.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
ICANT writes: Pastor ICANT showed me a new understanding than the one I had, which is that Satan was created precisely for the purpose that he had. Namely, to give us a choice. Pastor ICANT could show you your arse and call it Christmas pudding and you'd believe him. This stuff is childish Phat, it's a perpetual surprise to me that you can take it in anyway seriously. It's such obvious drivel. God created Satan to give us choice? How old are you?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Well you think that the concept of God is childish anyway. Which god? Your god yes, it's an obvious fabrication. A desitic kind of god isn't quite as dumb.
I doubt I will ever persuade you otherwise. You can cease to doubt.
If you are honest in your decision to hardly give the story another thought, I doubt if you would get judged harshly...provided you are a decent human in other respects. Obviously this isn't something that bothers me in the slightest, but according to your hero ICANT it doesnt matter how decent a life I lead, I'm going to hell. Don't you have a problem with that?
The bottom line is that we all have not learned everything that we are destined to learn.... Uh? How would anybody know how much we're destined to learn? Does that sentence actually have a real world meaning?
If I am ever in the UK, I will let you know and will buy you a coffee if you ever decided to let a loon like me near you. Sure, I'll take you fishing, it'll take your mind off this crap. But do you have a passport?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I reject tangles argument that everything knowable about God is in the book How can it be different, that's all you have?
and that there is no relationship outside of that book. You can't have a relationship with a book. The relationship you guys talk of is like the relationship some children have with their imaginary friend. It seems real to them but the adults know they'll grow out of it.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Adults don't know everything. Who are you to tell me that my belief is imaginary? Who's pastor ICANT to tell you that your belief is real? I'm the devil on your other shoulder. And btw, your belief is real; what you believe in isn't.
I'll continue to pray for you and ringo. I'd rather you did something useful.
Both of you need a good whipping for disrespecting Pastor ICANT. Your grovelling to that hopeless fake is demeaning. You know I said you couldn't offend me? Well your kowtowing to that charlatan comes very close.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: I only reject the idea that Jesus and God are confined to the book. With the exception of the personal delusions called revelations, all that anybody thinks that they know about Jesus is in the book. Where else could it come from?Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
The entire Christian belief system hangs on the historical reality of the resurrection. Without that your case - such that it is - collapses.
Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9515 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8 |
Phat writes: Since when has any belief hinged soley on evidence? Your error is insisting that it must be so. Christianity will likely outlast your money in the bank...propped up by mere faith. You're confused as usual Phat. Christianity is built on the claim of the resurrection. It's claimed to be a real historical fact not an analogy or a metaphor. Should that claim be disproven, Christainity is disproven. What people that call themselves Christians believe is quite another issue. No doubt they would continue to believe whatever they believe now and you'll have people like GDR shifting his ground to include the metaphor.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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