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Author Topic:   Evolution and complexity
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 119 (81405)
01-28-2004 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JIM
01-28-2004 8:23 PM


If there is no "inexorable trend toward more advanced forms of life" why did more advanced forms of life evolve with increasing velocity ever since the appearance of life some 3-3.6 billion years ago?
Firstly, the vast majority of the Earth's biomass continues to be relatively simple organisms. It's just that you don't tend to think about them. (Just stop and ponder, for a moment, how many individual bacteria there are on planet Earth. Whew!)
And think about it this way. Imagine the first living thing. It's literally the simplest organism that could possibly still be considered alive. Actually, imagine a population of them. Now, imagine that one thing changes about a few of them.
If that change was for the simpler, they all die, because they're no longer complex enough to be alive. If the change was for the complex, they live, and have advanced capabilities or something.
When you're at the bottom of the barrel, there's no place to go but up.
If you see a "trend" in evolution towards complexity, you're looking at it the wrong way. Complex, multicellular life is like a blip on the evolutionary radar. Most living things continue to be very simple indeed. It's just that it's easy for humans to forget about them.
Increase in complexity seem to me an observational fact.
Then you need to look a little harder. I'd reccommend reading Gould's "Full House". It's a great explanation of thise very phenomenon.
More importantly, why did life first emerge?
Why not? It's just a kind of chemistry. I'm inclined to think that it's inevitable, given enough time.

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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 119 (81776)
01-31-2004 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Saviourmachine
01-31-2004 6:10 AM


You can overwhelm me with counterexamples if you want.
Portuguese Man-of-Wars (Men-of-war?) grow to huge sizes, and being jellyfish-like (if not true jellyfish), nobody would accuse them of great complexity.
The largest known organism is a single soil fungus that, as I recall, covers some several square miles.
What's the chance that new mutants will overcome old species (even if there occurs some catastrophe)?
If the environment changes in such a way that the new mutants are adapted to it and the old species is not, then the odds are %100.
[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 01-31-2004]

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 119 (81783)
01-31-2004 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Saviourmachine
01-31-2004 8:09 AM


I want to give it a try first:
I guess I really don't see the relevance of information to biology. But that's just me, I guess. So I'm not really going to be the person you want to discuss information with...

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 31 of 119 (83512)
02-05-2004 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Saviourmachine
02-05-2004 5:48 PM


But in generally over time everything became more complex
Maybe you missed the part where I pointed out that isn't true. The Earth's biomass continues to be primarily comprised of simple organisms. Sure, there is plenty of complex life, but complexity is still the exception rather than the rule among living things on Earth.

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 34 of 119 (83562)
02-05-2004 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Saviourmachine
02-05-2004 6:24 PM


Can you explain me this exception of an exception of an exception?
Are you familiar with the term "normalized distribution" or perhaps "bell curve"?
There's always outliers - extreme individuals, one out of a million average folks. And the number of individual organisms is orders of magnitude more than a million. I shudder to even contemplate the number.
Complex life is a blip. Why does it need a particular explanation? There's certainly no trend towards complexity that I'm familiar with. Look at my first post in this thread, where I talk about it some more.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1498 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 90 of 119 (87628)
02-19-2004 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Lizard Breath
02-19-2004 9:33 PM


to another phenomenon of life?
Life is just a kind of self-sustaining chemistry. I would hardly put in on the level of a fundamental force, seeing as how it's an emergent state of them.

This message is a reply to:
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