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Author Topic:   Weekend at Bernie's
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(3)
Message 12 of 36 (773694)
12-07-2015 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Jon
12-07-2015 6:03 AM


Re: Education on Merit
Why not settle the problem by only granting access to higher education to those who have demonstrated a certain amount of past academic success?
Sure, but what's going to be the metric for "past academic success"? Standardized tests are nonsense, especially when we're talking about SATs (and similar tests). They are very parochial ways of measuring academic potential and talent of individuals.
And then there's the problem of creating a kind of genetic social stratification, where some individuals are -- by virtue of DNA sequences in their genomes -- better at standardized tests than others.
And, of course, unless you find a good way to counter this, then only granting access to higher education for those who have demonstrated past academic success creates an increasingly wider gap between those with wealthy parents and those with underprivileged parents.
Why can't we look at higher education as an investment that society makes in every one of its individuals?

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 Message 9 by Jon, posted 12-07-2015 6:03 AM Jon has replied

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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(2)
Message 16 of 36 (773702)
12-07-2015 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jon
12-07-2015 7:16 PM


Re: Education on Merit
A gene for standardized testing?
That's a little ridiculous as far as rebuttals go.
There is a general correlation between SAT scores and IQ scores (though, of course, correlation is not causation).
Genetics plays a role in determining IQ scores.
However, note that genetics is only a part of a much bigger picture -- and the biological determinism argument correlating race, genetics, and IQ has been very effectively refuted by Stephen J. Gould in The Mismeasure of Man.
SAT tests are nonsense, and so are IQ tests.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

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 Message 19 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 6:46 AM Genomicus has replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(5)
Message 17 of 36 (773703)
12-07-2015 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
12-07-2015 7:32 PM


Re: Education on Merit
Affirmative Action is to make guilty white folk feel better about themselves without actually having to do anything to help folks who actually need it.
You sound just like those kids on College Confidential who whine about being rejected from Ivy Leagues "because I'm white!"
Affirmative Action has nothing to do with white guilt. It's meant to compensate for -- to a limited degree -- the decades of institutionalized racism that had (and still has) a propensity for channeling white kids towards top-tier colleges and black and other kids towards the prison complex.

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 Message 15 by Jon, posted 12-07-2015 7:32 PM Jon has replied

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Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(1)
Message 22 of 36 (773732)
12-08-2015 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
12-08-2015 6:46 AM


Re: Education on Merit
I don't understand what you're objecting to.
Genetic social stratification because some are more "able" to get access to higher education by virtue of their genome sequences. Standardized testing is an enabler of that stratification, particularly when combined with a wealthy background.
The fact that everyone has natural talents is no reason not to reward folks in proportion to their achievements.
Why should we view "higher education" as a kind of "reward" in the first place? Why don't we view higher education as a social investment in the individual? It's society that will reap enormous rewards from a well-educated populace.
If you don't want to measure academic achievement with SAT and IQ tests, that's fine. There are plenty of other, more meaningful and more diverse, metrics for assessing this.
I'm sure these methods would not contribute to a wide gap between the wealthy and the underprivileged, right?
What you just described is white guilt.
That's a singularly reductionist perspective of white views concerning Affirmative Action. I doubt many, if not all, of those who identify as white on this forum would say that their support for Affirmative Action stems from some weird kind of guilt.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.
Edited by Genomicus, : Typo. I wrote this with only a couple hours of sleep.

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 Message 19 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 6:46 AM Jon has replied

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 Message 23 by Jon, posted 12-08-2015 6:31 PM Genomicus has replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 1972 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(6)
Message 24 of 36 (773778)
12-08-2015 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jon
12-08-2015 6:31 PM


Re: Education on Merit
At 5'4" I don't expect the government to subsidize me going to basketball camp to realize my life-long dream of dribbling with the pros.
I'm not making an even remotely analogous argument.
It's a fact that folks are born with different talents. A wise society will nurture the ones that exist, not mindlessly throw money at the ones that don't.
It's a fact that people are born with the capacity to develop multiple talents. Higher education allows these talents (critical thinking, for example) to be developed. A wise society will nurture all individuals, for all individuals are capable of developing beneficial talents. You're making a very biological determinism-esque argument.
But free bachelors degrees to anyone with a few years to burn isn't one of those improvements.
Umm, yeah, many people seeking associates or bachelor's degrees aren't people who are doing that just because they have a "few years to burn." It's because they are seeking a means out of a poverty cycle.
Oh, and you say that free bachelor's degrees isn't one of "those improvements." What makes you think that?
Years of Affirmative Action have accomplished nothing.
Except that you're wrong. See, e.g., here, here, here, here, and here.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.
Edited by Genomicus, : No reason given.

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