|
Author
|
Topic: Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?
|
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
Message 835 of 928 (758573)
05-28-2015 1:17 PM
|
Reply to: Message 833 by PaulK
05-28-2015 1:10 PM
|
|
You sure know how to turn an innocent desire to obey God into an evil act deserving punishment. Basically the same mentality that is bringing about these laws.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 833 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2015 1:10 PM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 839 by PaulK, posted 05-28-2015 1:39 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 838 of 928 (758576)
05-28-2015 1:38 PM
|
Reply to: Message 836 by ringo
05-28-2015 1:23 PM
|
|
Re: No second thoughts?
Trying to be the nice guy you claim we aren't doesn't get us anywhere does it? Oh well. You really can't see the difference between helping people get what they want and doing it yourself? I'll admit it could be a borderline case but I end up thinking no, as long as I'm not participating personally in the service desired I think it's OK. I guess somebody could talk me out of it though.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 836 by ringo, posted 05-28-2015 1:23 PM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 845 by ringo, posted 05-29-2015 11:47 AM | | Faith has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 840 of 928 (758579)
05-28-2015 1:41 PM
|
Reply to: Message 837 by jar
05-28-2015 1:32 PM
|
|
Right, and here we have another Redefinition in order to avoid the plain truth. Denial and redefinition.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 837 by jar, posted 05-28-2015 1:32 PM | | jar has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 841 by jar, posted 05-28-2015 2:10 PM | | Faith has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 843 of 928 (758584)
05-28-2015 4:12 PM
|
Reply to: Message 842 by Coyote
05-28-2015 3:43 PM
|
|
Re: Sin?
Last I heard, Heinlein isn't God. Of course, maybe he's YOUR god?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 842 by Coyote, posted 05-28-2015 3:43 PM | | Coyote has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
To compare the refusal of wedding services because it violates God's laws to physical violence against those of another belief system, driving them out of their homes and threatening to kill them, is eye-poppingly absurd, it seems to me, but it's time for me to give up on expecting anything to make sense at EvC. Clearly the consensus here is that refusing to support gay marriage is equivalent to the Inquisition or worse so we just have to expect to be punished for it. Even physical retaliation against us by gays is not to be prosecuted. I had the silly idea that if I kept repeating the arguments SOMEBODY would get it and give up the absurd injustice, but it isn't happening. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 848 by jar, posted 05-29-2015 6:10 PM | | Faith has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 849 of 928 (758624)
05-29-2015 6:44 PM
|
Reply to: Message 848 by jar
05-29-2015 6:10 PM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
Perhaps you can show even one instance of anyone's calling for the prosecution of those who committed the vandalism against Christian businesses? Unlike the calls for prosecution of the Christians who refused to support gay weddings, I've heard people say they "don't condone" the vandalism but nothing about bringing the perps to justice. And then there is Tempe's equation of mobs hanging pastors up by their arms and driving Protestants out of their homes, with refusing to serve gay weddings. Strange equivalences here. Unprecedented I think.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 848 by jar, posted 05-29-2015 6:10 PM | | jar has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
[qs] Tempe didn't equate violence and the refusal to bake a cake--he pointed out that both narratives reveal religious zealotry in the act of denying full human status to its victims. [qs]
Which is precisely the false equivalence I was talking about.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 850 by Omnivorous, posted 05-29-2015 7:23 PM | | Omnivorous has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 854 of 928 (758631)
05-29-2015 9:31 PM
|
Reply to: Message 852 by jar
05-29-2015 9:03 PM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
Unbelievable. Deporting Muslims because they are committed to killing people who don't believe as they do, requiring atheists to live under Christian laws, which don't deprive them of life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness, just require them not to blaspheme God essentially or teach against God; depriving people of alien views that are hostile to the present government of the power to destroy that government, all this is treated as "the greatest threat the US faces." Not Islam with its stated goal of bringing everyone under Allah and Shariah law, no, Christianity with sensible laws to protect itself while allowing others basic freedoms. Which laws characterized the first colonies here, laws that kept Catholics out of office for instance because the Pope wants to rule everybody and kill those who resist. The only benign player in the game -- not perfect, not without fault, but still basically benigh -- is under attack while the wolves are defended against the sheep. Unbelievable. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 852 by jar, posted 05-29-2015 9:03 PM | | jar has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 857 of 928 (758635)
05-29-2015 9:52 PM
|
Reply to: Message 856 by DrJones*
05-29-2015 9:46 PM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
If I'm not free to blaspheme then I'm not free. Spoken like a true child of postmodern times. Some speech corrupts the public consciousness, but we're so used to all kinds of such corrupting speech over the last half century we consider it "freedom." Blasphemy used to be penalized in America, and in the UK too I believe. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 856 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2015 9:46 PM | | DrJones* has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 859 of 928 (758637)
05-29-2015 10:01 PM
|
Reply to: Message 858 by DrJones*
05-29-2015 9:56 PM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
It's a simple matter of equal treatment under the law. Would you ok with laws preventing you from blaspheming against Odin the Allfather? of course not, so why should I be subject to laws that would prevent me from blaspheming against your god? We're talking about a Christian country here. That's the context the quotes jar put up. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 858 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2015 9:56 PM | | DrJones* has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 862 of 928 (758644)
05-30-2015 3:04 AM
|
Reply to: Message 860 by DrJones*
05-29-2015 10:03 PM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
We're talking about a Christian country here.
So a christian country is not obligated to treat it's citizens equally under the law? Some citizens are more equal than others? Well, apparently if a (Protestant) Christian nation wants to stay Christian it has to limit the freedoms of the antiChristians or you'll eventually have the situation where Christians can lose their businesses and be fined for obeying God, or perhaps forced to adhere to Sharia law, wear burgas or be killed, or told to recant their beliefs and become Catholics or be killed and so on. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 860 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2015 10:03 PM | | DrJones* has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 864 of 928 (758646)
05-30-2015 3:36 AM
|
Reply to: Message 860 by DrJones*
05-29-2015 10:03 PM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
Here's Samuel Adams , one of the American founders and a strong Protestant, on why Catholic freedoms had to be limited, which of course should also apply to any intolerant belief system (and by intolerant is NOT meant requiring people to obey reasonable laws for the peace of society, but actively forcing others to believe something on pain of death, which is what the Inquisition did and what Islam does wherever it has the power):
In regard to religion, mutual toleration in the different professions thereof is what all good and candid minds in all ages have ever practised, and, both by precept and example, inculcated on mankind. And it is now generally agreed among Christians that this spirit of toleration, in the fullest extent consistent with the being of civil society, is the chief characteristical mark of the Church. Insomuch that Mr. Locke has asserted and proved, beyond the possibility of contradiction on any solid ground, that such toleration ought to be extended to all whose doctrines are not subversive of society. The only sects which he thinks ought to be, and which by all wise laws are excluded from such toleration, are those who teach doctrines subversive of the civil government under which they live. The Roman Catholics or Papists are excluded by reason of such doctrines as these, that princes excommunicated may be deposed, and those that they call heretics may be destroyed without mercy; besides their recognizing the Pope in so absolute a manner, in subversion of government, by introducing, as far as possible into the states under whose protection they enjoy life, liberty, and property, that solecism in politics, imperium in imperio, leading directly to the worst anarchy and confusion, civil discord, war, and bloodshed. JToleration is to be given to all "whose doctrines are not subversive of society." Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 860 by DrJones*, posted 05-29-2015 10:03 PM | | DrJones* has not replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 870 of 928 (758657)
05-30-2015 8:38 AM
|
Reply to: Message 865 by DrJones*
05-30-2015 3:39 AM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
No, their freedom of religion is not removed, just their political power to impose it on the rest of the country, which isn't taken away from anyone except those whose religion preaches the subjugation of everyone else, such as Islam and Roman Catholicism. We aren't taking away their businesses, but that's what's what's being done to us,
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 865 by DrJones*, posted 05-30-2015 3:39 AM | | DrJones* has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 872 by JonF, posted 05-30-2015 9:43 AM | | Faith has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 871 of 928 (758658)
05-30-2015 8:38 AM
|
Reply to: Message 865 by DrJones*
05-30-2015 3:39 AM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
So you want to remove people's freedom of religion and freedom of speech. Tell me how is that different from what you claim is being done to Christians. No, their freedom of religion is not removed, just their political power to impose it on the rest of the country, and the right to hold office isn't taken away from anyone except those whose religion preaches the subjugation of everyone else, such as Islam and Roman Catholicism. We aren't taking away their businesses, but that's what's what's being done to us, Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 865 by DrJones*, posted 05-30-2015 3:39 AM | | DrJones* has replied |
|
Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1474 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
|
|
|
Message 881 of 928 (758681)
05-30-2015 9:03 PM
|
Reply to: Message 876 by Tangle
05-30-2015 12:32 PM
|
|
Re: Inquisition still continuing
Is it really too much to ask that Christians, in modern democracies where everyone's rights are balanced against each other, that they live up to such a simple and just requirement? If you can't find room to compromise in such trivial matters then your kind of Christian needs to find a new kind of business and excercise your right to be bigots in your churches, chapels and homes. Aaaaa no big deal, just tell God you'd rather keep your business than obey Him in such a trivial matter.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 876 by Tangle, posted 05-30-2015 12:32 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2