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Author Topic:   Roy Moore, Alabama Chief Idiot back in the news yet again.
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 181 of 313 (751501)
03-03-2015 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Asgara
03-03-2015 1:31 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
Since their biblical views were hardly a secret, it shows that they had NO idea of the First Amendment's opposing them in the slightest. Probably a case of taking it so much for granted it didn't even occur to them how it would be misconstrued a couple centuries later.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6412
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.5


(3)
Message 182 of 313 (751503)
03-03-2015 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Faith
03-03-2015 12:24 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
Only according to today's revisionist dogma, not according to the Founders who very actively supported Biblical principles in the governing of the nation.
The revisionism is coming from the religious right. They are continually attempting to change history to read their theocratic values into it.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 313 (751523)
03-03-2015 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by nwr
03-03-2015 1:58 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
Prayer in the name of Jesus opening Congressional sessions. Nobody among the Founders ever opposed that as against the First Amendment.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 184 of 313 (751531)
03-03-2015 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
03-03-2015 3:04 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
Prayer in the name of Jesus opening Congressional sessions. Nobody among the Founders ever opposed that as against the First Amendment.
Can you back that up? I know that Madison believed the employment of a legislative Chaplin was unconstitutional and was an establishment of religion. I find it difficult to conclude that Madison was either 1) not a founder or 2) not opposed to the prayer.

Je Suis Charlie
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2332 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(4)
Message 185 of 313 (751532)
03-03-2015 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
03-03-2015 1:39 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
You are correct. Their views were hardly a secret.
George Washington in 1790 writes:
For happily the Government of the United States gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.
John Adams in 1796 writes:
The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion
Thomas Jefferson in 1823 writes:
And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
James Madison in 1817 writes:
Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom?
In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U. S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taxes. Does not this involve the principle of a national establishment, applicable to a provision for a religious worship for the Constituent as well as of the representative Body, approved by the majority, and conducted by Ministers of religion paid by the entire nation.
The establishment of the chaplainship to Congs is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected [by the majority] shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority. To say nothing of other sects, this is the case with that of Roman Catholics & Quakers who have always had members in one or both of the Legislative branches. Could a Catholic clergyman ever hope to be appointed a Chaplain? To say that his religious principles are obnoxious or that his sect is small, is to lift the evil at once and exhibit in its naked deformity the doctrine that religious truth is to be tested by numbers. or that the major sects have a right to govern the minor. .

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 186 of 313 (751538)
03-03-2015 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Asgara
03-03-2015 3:32 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
Yeah, nothing new there. Though there are arguments that could be had about some of it, I just have no interest in having those arguments.
Madison had the only true Christian belief I think, and his interest was mostly in preserving Christianity from government intrusion. Note please that all the sources for chaplains that he is considering are Christian, he's not including Hindus or Muslims.
The main five founders however were not Christians, in fact they deny so much of Christianity they are really antichrists. What I said was that they favored biblical standards in government and society in general, meaning mostly biblical morality, the ten commandments and so on. Jefferson loved the Bible enough to preserve all the parts of it he admired, throwing out the supernatural parts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 187 of 313 (751540)
03-03-2015 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by NoNukes
03-03-2015 3:24 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
Just the historical fact that prayer has always opened government sessions. If it was considered by the Founders to violate the First Amendment it wouldn't have been allowed.

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 188 of 313 (751542)
03-03-2015 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Faith
03-03-2015 4:24 PM


Alien and Sedition Acts
Have you ever heard of the Alien and Sedition Acts? They were passed 1798, when most of Congress were what you would consider Founding Fathers, and signed into law by John Adams.
Among other things, they made it a crime to assemble ‘with intent to oppose any measure of the government’ and for any person to ‘print, utter, or publish any false, scandalous, and malicious writing’ against the government.
By your reasoning, since many of the Founding Fathers supported these things, they should be Constitutional today.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1473 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 189 of 313 (751543)
03-03-2015 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by subbie
03-03-2015 4:48 PM


Re: Alien and Sedition Acts
But those laws were strongly opposed also by founders and eventually died. But prayer opened Congressional sessions in the time of the Founders which should show that they didn't regard it as a violation of the amendment, wasn't ever seriously opposed and continued into the present.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 195 by Taq, posted 03-03-2015 7:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 190 of 313 (751544)
03-03-2015 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
03-03-2015 4:57 PM


Re: Alien and Sedition Acts
And you continue to ignore facts that others have previously established in this very thread.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 03-03-2015 4:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 423 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 191 of 313 (751545)
03-03-2015 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
03-03-2015 4:57 PM


Congressional prayers
Faith writes:
But prayer opened Congressional sessions in the time of the Founders which should show that they didn't regard it as a violation of the amendment, wasn't ever seriously opposed and continued into the present.
While such prayers may be annoying they are of no importance or consequence and no one needs listen or pay attention or even be in attendance. It is a pretty simple and harmless way to mollify the nutjobs and then get on with the business of governance.
As long as the Christians cannot get any of their silly nonsense passed into laws it does no harm to let them chatter on.
AbE:
This is very similar to how folk should react to idiots like Roy Moore. Allow them to pray or spout their bigoted nonsense but then just ignore them like you do whining preteens. Nod you head and tell them that is an interesting point but don't let them force their nonsense into law or education or social policy.
Tolerate their speech regardless of how annoying it might be. Treat them with kindness and pity and continue trying to educate them.
Edited by jar, : see AbE: an attempt to tie Faith's nonsense to the topic.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1284 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 192 of 313 (751546)
03-03-2015 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
03-03-2015 4:57 PM


Re: Alien and Sedition Acts
Oh, and they were allowed to die because they were wartime acts, and the war ended. That doesn't mean that the Founders who voted for, passed and signed the laws thought they were unconstitutional

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 03-03-2015 4:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


(6)
Message 193 of 313 (751550)
03-03-2015 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Faith
03-03-2015 12:15 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
It isn't only Christians who have always regarded homosexuality as no legitimate class of people but at least aberrant if not exactly sinners, to whom the idea of gay marriage wouldn't even occur and if it did would also be thought evil.
Now you can understand the reason for the change. In this country we are not supposed to treat our fellow Americans as second class, aberrant and evil just for wanting the same thing you christians have always had.
In any case when government starts actively violating the commandments of God, which DID used to be taken VERY seriously even by the nonChristian Founders, the nation is due for a radical shaking up.
List, along with how, which of the 10 commandments this government is actively violating?
But the best way to answer you would be to muster all the voluminous evidence of the overwhelmingly Christian character of the nation, even among the nonChristians, up until about half a century ago...
150 years late. You christians have had such a headlock on this society for that 150 years that you feel you not only run this place but that you own it as if it were your private christian property. From now on you christians are going to have to deal with the rest of us Americans as equals. We all, every group, every kind, every color, every shape, every mood of American in this entire society, have the same right to legitimacy and happiness as any other group, kind, color, shape or mood. That includes the right to an open, recognized, relationship and marriage with the one they love free from the bigotry of some religious zealots who have lost the power to control society through invoking fear of their god's Divine RetributionSM .
Your christian privilege has come to an end. You are nothing more than Americans just like all the rest of us.

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 Message 176 by Faith, posted 03-03-2015 12:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8564
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 194 of 313 (751551)
03-03-2015 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Faith
03-03-2015 12:20 PM


Re: Christian Tyranny
My point was that law has been abandoned, the Constitution has been abandoned, and the revisionist interpretations in its place ARE the same as ruling by emotional whim, the latest subjective twisting of the law. No more Law is the point, nothing but faddish subjectivity, which in a fallen race is only going to take the nation into the sewer.
Hyperbolic crap. Spiteful and vindictive falsehoods bent of frustration at losing the power to control secular society with your bigoted and hateful church.
Welcome to the sewer, Faith. Take a deep breath. That acrid stenchy smell is equality and individual freedom for all the people you and your church so despise. Kinda sticks in your craw, makes you want to gag, doesn't it christian?

This message is a reply to:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 195 of 313 (751554)
03-03-2015 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Faith
03-03-2015 4:57 PM


Re: Alien and Sedition Acts
But those laws were strongly opposed also by founders and eventually died.
Were those the same founders that owned fellow human beings, and imprisoned them against their will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 03-03-2015 4:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
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