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Author Topic:   Islam and Creation?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 32 (734676)
08-01-2014 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coyote
07-31-2014 9:17 PM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
So, is anyone going to try to tell me this is not true? And if so, what is the evidence behind your claim?
Its not true. Humans evolved from earlier hominids, they were not created out of clay by an eagle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 07-31-2014 9:17 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 32 (734677)
08-01-2014 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
07-31-2014 5:44 PM


Well, there are Islamic creationists, the most famous of whom is Harun Yahya.
Thanks for sharing that, its a hoot.
and tacitly assume that their chosen religion is the one viable alternative.
Oh, he goes beyond tacit assumption and right into blatant proclamation.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 32 (734691)
08-01-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by dwise1
08-01-2014 10:25 AM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
Well, at least the story doesn't have us formed out of coyote scat.
I was surprised that the eagle had the coyote bang the human's girlfriend... twice.
Oral tradition changes far more rapidly than the general public realizes.
Sure. Haven't you played the Telephone Game?

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 32 (735584)
08-18-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Epee
08-18-2014 10:57 AM


Literal?
But there's no consistent way to decide which parts of the bible are allegorical and which are literal.
Why not? I mean, its not that hard to come up with a few ways that are, at least, consistent.
Like, you could just compare it with reality to determine which parts aren't literal.
For example, we know that snakes don't talk so that suggests that the story never really happened.
Or you could pick some weird random way, but just keep it consistent... like, all the words that begin with a 'W' are allegorical, and all the words that begin with an "M" are literal. That's silly, but that could still be consistent.
Every story ever written can be taken allegorically.
What could "One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue Fish" be an allegory for?
But when discussing Star Wars with friends, I don't assume that we're discussing it as a metaphor for World War 2, we discuss it literally until someone makes an argument that a specific part is a metaphor.
Hrm, I'm not really picking up what you're putting down. What do you mean by literal?
Like, Darth Vader was never a real person, we all know that Star Wars is fiction. But, literally, according to the story, he did use a red lightsaber.
In the same way, in the Garden of Eden story, the snake literally did talk, but recognizing that doesn't mean accepting that the events in the story actually took place in real life.
Deciding that certain passages should be metaphorical and others shouldn't is nitpicking, unless you have clear reasons for doing so. Even then, it might still be nitpicking, just justifiably so.
Are you trying to tell me that when I read that Jesus was the lamb of God, that I should read that as saying that he was literally God's baby sheep?
And if I see that as a metaphor then I am nitpicking?
'Cause that don't make sense...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Epee, posted 08-18-2014 10:57 AM Epee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Epee, posted 08-18-2014 12:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 32 (735592)
08-18-2014 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Epee
08-18-2014 12:12 PM


Re: Literal?
By literal I mean that we take the happenings in the story as the actual happenings in the story.
And when Jesus offers a parable, would that literally be an allegory?
Why can't I be consistent when I see that the parable of the Good Samaritan is an allegory while also accepting that some of the other events that are described actually did happen?
Where is the inconsistency in that?
In the same vein, if I'm discussing genesis as metaphor for the futility of disobeying god, I'm not going to have any kind of meaningful discussion with someone who takes it as the literal story of creation.
See, this is where I'm getting confused.
In the story, the snake literally did talk. But that story never happened in real life.
So is that taking it literally or not?
Usually, when people talk about taking the Bible literally, they mean that they accept that the events did happen in real life.
I don't usually see people talking about taking the Bible literally as being reading something as literally happening within the story even though they realize that the events never took place in real life.

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Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 32 (735599)
08-18-2014 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Epee
08-18-2014 1:08 PM


Re: Literal?
Sorry if my arguments are unclear, I'm fairly new to written, online debates.
Welcome to the fray! So far, so good.
Even though you're not crystal clear, and least you're nice and genuine.
One is taking a story as literally true, the other is taking it as literally true in the context of the story.
So which one are you claiming that a Christian cannot be consistent with?
I don't see any reason why Jesus did not mean that the story of the Good Samaritan is an allegory and did not literally happen, or any reason as to why that story is not believable.
Huh? Is there an extra "not" in there?
Are you saying that Jesus meant to say that the events in the story of the Good Samaritan actually happened in real life?
I find all of the arguments as to how that story is allegorical to be as ridiculous as my story about one fish, two fish. If I'm missing something, please point it out.
Jesus said that he would use parables to explain things. The events in the parables are not spoken of as if they ever actually happened in real life.
Of course, if you have some good reason as to why a part of the bible should not be taken literally other than "This can't happen, therefore even though the bible said it did it doesn't really mean that" then it's completely justifiable to believe so.
Which "literally"?
Here is a list of the parables that Jesus offered:
http://www.rc.net/wcc/readings/parables.htm
All of them describe events that never actually happened in real life. They are ficticious stories that are designed to explain a message.
Now, I suppose you could say that the events in the stories literally happened within those stories, but I don't see any point in bringing that up?
I've seen quite a bit of your arguments on this forum
That still creeps me out when people say that

This message is a reply to:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 32 (735601)
08-18-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Epee
08-18-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
If you're debating with someone who believes in the bible, claiming that it should be taken with "fictional consistency" often comes off wrong, although I do see your point.
You'd be surprised how often us Bible believers do debate the fictional consistency of many of the stories.
There's been whole threads on The Flood and the Garden of Eden where us Bible believers, who know that The Flood and GoE never actually happened, had long and drawn out debates on the consistencies within that fiction.
Granted, they typically stem from someone who thinks The Flood and the GoE literally happened, but we do go off on tangents with each other and debate the finer points of the fictional consistencies in those stories.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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