Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Islam and Creation?
Epee
Junior Member (Idle past 3233 days)
Posts: 13
From: Florida
Joined: 07-28-2014


Message 1 of 32 (734619)
07-30-2014 6:20 PM


Hey all, I've been lurking this forum for awhile now, but just recently made an account and this is my first post.
Anyway, I've been wondering on how other Islam sees the claim of creationism. It's also based off of the Torah, so I could see if they were able to justify YEC or OEC, but I've been unable to find anything on the topic.
If followers of Islam don't follow creationism, should they? I've always thought that they should still believe in genesis since the Koran is based off of the Torah.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 07-31-2014 1:49 PM Epee has replied
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2014 5:44 PM Epee has not replied
 Message 13 by dwise1, posted 08-01-2014 10:20 AM Epee has not replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 32 (734620)
07-31-2014 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Epee
07-30-2014 6:20 PM


Hello Epee--welcome. Its always good when we can "out" a lurker...our family then becomes bigger> Now...about this topic....
I've been wondering on how other Islam sees the claim of creationism.
Are you asking other Islamic participants to comment, and/or are you asking all of us in general? Personally, I would imagine that everyone sees the idea of creationism a bit differently, on an individual basis.
It's also based off of the Torah, so I could see if they were able to justify YEC or OEC, but I've been unable to find anything on the topic.
Are you saying that the idea of Biblical Creationism--seven days, arks, and fig leaf clothing were ideas shared by Judaism, Christianity and Islam?
What is your personal belief? It is usually wise to start a topic by explaining your position first.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Epee, posted 07-30-2014 6:20 PM Epee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Epee, posted 07-31-2014 3:05 PM AdminPhat has not replied

  
Epee
Junior Member (Idle past 3233 days)
Posts: 13
From: Florida
Joined: 07-28-2014


Message 3 of 32 (734621)
07-31-2014 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
07-31-2014 1:49 PM


Thanks for the welcome!
If we have any Islamic participants I'd love to know there opinions, but I'm curious to how everyone feels on this topic.
Sorry about that. I don't know much about Islam, but it is my understanding that they follow the old testament. This makes it seem to me like they should be following the entire creation story as well, including the 7 days of creation, Noah's Ark, etc in the same way Christians should. Otherwise it just seems like nitpicking which parts you want to follow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 07-31-2014 1:49 PM AdminPhat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 07-31-2014 5:21 PM Epee has replied

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 32 (734623)
07-31-2014 5:18 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Islam and Creation? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
I don't know much about Islam, but it is my understanding that they follow the old testament. This makes it seem to me like they should be following the entire creation story as well, including the 7 days of creation, Noah's Ark, etc in the same way Christians should. Otherwise it just seems like nitpicking which parts you want to follow.
So you are suggesting that people who are believers--in whatever religion they believe in---should follow most or all of its tenets,right? Perhaps you could tell us why you think this way. Why does anyone have to do certain things. I will promote you, but expect some challenges from others on this.
Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Epee, posted 07-31-2014 6:23 PM AdminPhat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 32 (734624)
07-31-2014 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Epee
07-31-2014 3:05 PM


Ripleys Believe It Or Not
I don't know much about Islam, but it is my understanding that they follow the old testament.
Out of curiousity, which religion and/or belief did you grow up with?
What are your beliefs, in a nutshell?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Epee, posted 07-31-2014 3:05 PM Epee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Epee, posted 07-31-2014 6:25 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 07-31-2014 9:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 6 of 32 (734627)
07-31-2014 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Epee
07-30-2014 6:20 PM


Well, there are Islamic creationists, the most famous of whom is Harun Yahya. It's exactly the same as Christian creationism, because all creationists have the same formula: whine inaccurately about evolution, and tacitly assume that their chosen religion is the one viable alternative.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Epee, posted 07-30-2014 6:20 PM Epee has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2014 9:56 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 16 by RAZD, posted 08-01-2014 4:07 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Epee
Junior Member (Idle past 3233 days)
Posts: 13
From: Florida
Joined: 07-28-2014


Message 7 of 32 (734628)
07-31-2014 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by AdminPhat
07-31-2014 5:18 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
What fun is it without challenges?
If you believe that your holy book is the written word of god, you can't just pick and choose which parts you like, especially if your of the type to think that you get your morality from god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by AdminPhat, posted 07-31-2014 5:18 PM AdminPhat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 07-31-2014 8:24 PM Epee has replied

  
Epee
Junior Member (Idle past 3233 days)
Posts: 13
From: Florida
Joined: 07-28-2014


Message 8 of 32 (734629)
07-31-2014 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
07-31-2014 5:21 PM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
Out of curiousity, which religion and/or belief did you grow up with?
What are your beliefs, in a nutshell?
I was raised in a Jewish household but I'm closer to atheist/agonstic than anything (a 6 on Dawkins scale).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 07-31-2014 5:21 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 32 (734631)
07-31-2014 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Epee
07-31-2014 6:23 PM


Re: Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
f you believe that your holy book is the written word of god
What exactly do you think the phrase "written word of god" actually means? That god dictated every word of the Bible? That the Bible contains no allegory or non literal lessons?
Your position is based on some assumptions that are not shared by every person who claims to follow the Bible. Almost certainly your judgments of those people are wrong as well.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Epee, posted 07-31-2014 6:23 PM Epee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Epee, posted 08-01-2014 5:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 10 of 32 (734632)
07-31-2014 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
07-31-2014 5:21 PM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
What are your beliefs, in a nutshell?
If I may interject...
I find the Native American Old Man Coyote stories to be as convincing as biblical stories.
And a lot more entertaining.
Here is an example:
The Creation of Men and Women
When the world was finished, there were as yet no people, but the Bald Eagle was chief of the animals. He saw that the world was incomplete and decided to make some human beings. So he took some clay and modeled the figure of a man and laid him on the ground. At first he was very small but he grew rapidly until he reached normal size. But as yet he had no life; he was still asleep. Then the Bald Eagle stood and admired his work. "It is impossible," he said, "that he should be left alone; he must have a mate." So he pulled out a feather and laid it beside the sleeping man. Then he left them and went off a short distance, for he knew that a woman was being formed from the feather. But the man was still asleep and did not know what was happening. When the Bald Eagle decided that the woman was about completed, he returned, awoke the man by flapping his wings over him and flew away.
The man opened his eyes and stared at the woman. "What does this mean?" he asked. "I thought I was alone!" Then the Bald Eagle returned and said with a smile, "I see you have a mate! Have you had intercourse with her?" "No," replied he man, for he and the woman knew nothing about each other. Then the Bald Eagle called to Coyote who happened to be going by and said to him, "Do you see that woman? Try her first!" Coyote was quite willing and complied, but immediately afterwards lay down and died. The Bald Eagle went away and left Coyote dead, but presently returned and revived him. "How did it work?" said the Bald Eagle. "Pretty well, but it nearly kills a man!" replied Coyote. "Will you try it again?" said the Bald Eagle. Coyote agreed, and tried again, and this time survived. Then the Bald Eagle turned to the man and said, "She is all right now; you and she are to live together.
California Indian creation story
So, is anyone going to try to tell me this is not true? And if so, what is the evidence behind your claim?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 07-31-2014 5:21 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2014 9:45 AM Coyote has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 32 (734676)
08-01-2014 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Coyote
07-31-2014 9:17 PM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
So, is anyone going to try to tell me this is not true? And if so, what is the evidence behind your claim?
Its not true. Humans evolved from earlier hominids, they were not created out of clay by an eagle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Coyote, posted 07-31-2014 9:17 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by dwise1, posted 08-01-2014 10:25 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 32 (734677)
08-01-2014 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Dr Adequate
07-31-2014 5:44 PM


Well, there are Islamic creationists, the most famous of whom is Harun Yahya.
Thanks for sharing that, its a hoot.
and tacitly assume that their chosen religion is the one viable alternative.
Oh, he goes beyond tacit assumption and right into blatant proclamation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-31-2014 5:44 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 13 of 32 (734680)
08-01-2014 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Epee
07-30-2014 6:20 PM


I haven't followed that creationist lineage, but the National Center for Science Education (NCSE at http://ncse.com/) did and published some articles on Islamic creationism. The name, Harun Yahya, did come up, as I recall, but there's more to it than just him.
I went to their site and did a search on Islam. Here are the results:
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=007171283833601515084%3Aykvz....
Share and enjoy!
PS
I also went to the talkorigins newsgroup's archive site, talkorigins.org, and did another search on Islam. You'll need to do that search for yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Epee, posted 07-30-2014 6:20 PM Epee has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 14 of 32 (734681)
08-01-2014 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by New Cat's Eye
08-01-2014 9:45 AM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
Well, at least the story doesn't have us formed out of coyote scat.
In one Mandan origins myth, wolves were drowned in Hudson Bay and out of their rotting fur was formed the white man. This from an article in NCSE's Creation/Evolution journal which described how the Mandan origins myth had changed rapidly in the face of drastic changes in their life-styles over a few centuries. Oral tradition changes far more rapidly than the general public realizes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2014 9:45 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-01-2014 11:04 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 32 (734691)
08-01-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by dwise1
08-01-2014 10:25 AM


Re: Ripleys Believe It Or Not
Well, at least the story doesn't have us formed out of coyote scat.
I was surprised that the eagle had the coyote bang the human's girlfriend... twice.
Oral tradition changes far more rapidly than the general public realizes.
Sure. Haven't you played the Telephone Game?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by dwise1, posted 08-01-2014 10:25 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024