|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: EM space drive | |||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
In other words, lots of things are impossible right up to the time somebody does it anyway. True. And yet some things, like neutrinos travelling faster than 'c' turn and cold fission out to not to be actual despite claims that those things were witnessed.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
It is enough to provide 2 oz of thrust or force given the test parameters. If applied to an object in space it could move very large objects. Maybe this will help. Two oz of thrust will accelerate a 2oz object the same way a 2oz object is accelerated when if falls off of your desk. Heavier objects will be accelerated proportionately less. As your description implies, it does not take any amount of force to move an object in space. Any net force on an object, however tiny, will accelerate an object, and the object will continue to move until another force acts on it.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Jon was asking about applications here on the ground... Being on the ground does not matter. The question of how much force it takes to move an object is nonsensical unless you talk about all of the forces on an object. Two ounces of thrust can move a 2 oz object upward in earth's gravitational field, but that same 2 oz thrust can also move accelerate a locomotive across a friction free surface.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Uh, gravity and friction would certainly play a role in how much stuff you could move with 2 ounces of force. Did you read just half of my comment before responding? Did I not address everything you mentioned? How much weight do you think you can move with 2 oz of thrust CS assuming we conduct the experiment at ground level? Is there any universal answer?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Pretty much, for the one for down here on the ground... where gravity and friction would certainly play a role... That's what I meant. That's what was being talked about. I note that you did not specify this "universal answer" despite your claim that there is one. Well, your answer is wrong. There is no limit to the amount of weight that two oz of thrust can move here on earth. F= ma applies everywhere. The link below is to an experiment for measuring the gravitational constant by measuring the motion of a pair of 38 gram masses being attracted gravitationally by a pair of 1.5kg mass. A measurable motion of the 38 gram masses was obtained despite the fact that the forces involved are on the order of 7 * 10-10 N. I'll note that the experiment was conducted on earth and not in outer space. http://www.phys.utk.edu/...asco%20Cavendish%20Experiment.pdf Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
So it's enough to move 2 oz. worth of material? See that question at the very end of the material you quoted? What is the answer to that question?
They're talking about using an EmDrive for some kind of ground vehicle, like a car or something. Apparently, that's what you decided the issue was. The answer to the question Jon actually asked was given correctly by Nosy Ned. And as for the question of whether having a very small thrust generator without an impulse mass can have applications on the ground, if the only issue that comes to minds is whether you can drive a car with 2 oz of thrust, you are not being very imaginative.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Is the question you ask just literally the words that you type, or is the question you ask the one that you mean? Jon's question was whether he should interpret the 2 oz of thrust to mean that only 2 oz of material can be moved. What's the correct answer to that question? Then you interpret that to mean that Jon is only asking about applications for ground vehicles? Where do you get that?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Could you generate enough electricity to overcome the force of a solar wind and fly directly at the sun? I suppose that the easy answer is that you could fly into the sun if you were far enough away. Sail power falls off with distance from the sun, but the thruster would not. And of course there may be an opportunity to scale up the force generated assuming that it is real.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
I was really interested in figuring out what kind of acceleration you could get on an average space satellite with the 2 oz. of thrust: a 0 to 60 in so many seconds sort of answer. The international space station weighs 9*10^5 pounds. Two ounces of thrust would produce an acceleration of about 0.00000014 g on such a mass. You could accelerate the international space station from 0-60 mph in about 8 months. That answer is correct regardless of the strength of the gravitational field the space station is in.
As for my comment about the ground, I was anticipating an answer that took into account the friction and gravity that must be overcome to move things; Your question is unanswerable without making up a bunch of stuff. Gravity does not affect horizontal motion per se, and there is no standard value for the frictional forces. Vertically, 2oz of thrust can lift a 2oz object in earth's gravitational field.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Of course. I'm a skeptic myself. While I admit that I am hopeful that this will get confirmed, I am completely opened to the possibility that this may turn out to be another cold fusion debacle. The drive is almost certainly a hoax that a few people at Nasa have been hoodwinked into accepting. I think people can be forgiven for not taking 2 oz of thrust too seriously given that. "Quantum vacuum virtual plasma?" Really? ABE: On thinking about this a bit, the word hoax is probably not appropriate. What I mean is that the drive almost certainly does not function. I'm not going to start teaching the students I tutor that there are exceptions to conservation of momentum or to Newton's third law. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
It does take some understanding of physics that most people lack. "Some understanding of physics"? So you understand how it works? Nobody seems to be able to explain how the drive might work without using Star Trek like faux science talk. But I'd welcome the opportunity to read your attempt to do better. Regarding terrestrial applications, here is a link from what I'm calling the snake oil site. EmDrive - FAQ
quote: Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Oh, the irony! Happening right on a forum where people have intellectual debates and whine about quote mining, you went ahead and quote-mined me. It was not a quote mine. Your statement suggested that you had an impression of how momentum was conserved. Here is the entire quote.
I don't think it's an exception to the conservation of momentum at all, if it was real that is, just like how airplanes don't actually defy gravity. It does take some understanding of physics that most people lack. I've looked at a few discussions on the internet, and it seems that every citation of physicists like Sean Carroll and others pointing out the problems with the em-drive explanations are met with expressions of absolute belief that the drive is working. Apparently, any skepticism whatsoever comes from old physics fogies who need to get out of the way of progress. Airplanes don't "appear" to be violating any laws of physics. There is no law saying that objects cannot move upwards against gravity. Any fool can see that birds fly. On the other hand, there are a couple of laws of physics which do not allow the center of gravity of an object to change its motion unless an external force operates on it. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024