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Author | Topic: Religious children have harder time between fact and fiction | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Diomedes writes: They don't have the actual numbers and counts from the study It's a fairly technical paper - I can email you the pdf if you'd like to pm your address
2.1.1. Participants A total of sixty-six 5- and 6-year-old children participated (M = 5;8, SD = 6 months, range: 4;11—6;7, 36 female). Participants were recruited from kindergarten classrooms in public schools (n = 32) and parochial schools (n = 34) in Cambridge, MA, and the surrounding area. Most participants were White (61%), although other ethnicities were represented (21% Asian American, 18% African American). Irrespective of whether they attended a public school or a parochial school, children were asked about church attendance. Specifically, after presentation of the final story, children were asked, Does your family go to services? Children who said yes were categorized as churchgoers. Children who said no were categorized as non-churchgoers. This description of children’s religious home life was confirmed through consultation with the kindergarten teachers. The majority of children who said that they did attend services attended Christian services. We excluded the additional few children who said that they attended Jewish Temple (n = 6), because several of the stories used in the study are based on the New Testament (see Appendix A) and therefore would be likely to be less familiar to children who grew up in a Jewish family. For the 32 children who attended public school, 16 children (M = 5;7 years, SD = 5 months, 7 females) were identified as churchgoers. The remaining 16 children (M = 5;8 years, SD = 6 months, 8 females) were identified as non-churchgoers. For the 34 children who attended parochial school, 16 children (M = 5;9, SD = 5 months, 10 females) were identified as churchgoers. The remaining 18 children (M = 5;9, SD = 7 months, 10 females) were identified as non-churchgoers. In summary, three groups of children had exposure to religion: churchgoers who attended public school; non-churchgoers who attended parochial school; and churchgoers who attended parochial school. A fourth group of childrennon-churchgoers attending public schoolhad no exposure to religion in either church or school. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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CS writes: The thing about the Catholics, though, is that they seem to be open to including new and updated information as we get it (like say theistic evolution), rather than digging their heals in on everything and indoctrinating children with all these anti-science mentalities (read: Creationism). No Catholics are much worse, they're pragmatists. They eventually change their rules to prevent themselves going out of business. Losing converts to Islam in Africa because dead babies don't go to heaven? No problem, do away with Limbo. All Catholics in modern developed countries use contraception which is a mortal sin. No problem, it's a matter of conscience. The earth not the centre of the universe? Well ok, it's time to stop torturing people. Priests must be celibate. We have a bunch of married Anglicans wanting to leave because of gay marriage. No problem they can be married Catholic priests. 2% of priests are paedophiles. No problem, we'll have our own rules and pretend we're above the law. Massive recruitment problem because of child abuse. No problem let's look into allowing priests to marry. Anything to survive eh?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CS writes: How does all that result in Catholic children being less able to distinguish fact from fiction than Evangelical ones? You introduced the "Catholics are better than Creationists" argument, not me.
Or was that just some good old fashioned knee-jerk hatin' on the Catholics? Or was this just a silly thing to say?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CS writes: Better at not indoctrinating children so that they cannot distinguish between fact and fiction Certainly better at changing their previous held firm facts into the fiction the rest of us already know when it becomes inconvenient/unsustainable. Which was the point of my comment. Creationists will die out - are dying out - because their beliefs are obviously demented. Catholics will carry on compromising forever to maintain their organisations. The transubstantiation is the fiction that will die the hardest, but die it will. It'll be another matter of 'conscience'. How does that stack with fact and fiction that are taught to children?
It'd be interesting to see the same study contrasting Catholic and Evangelical children. I bet that the Catholic children would do better than the Evangelical ones. I'm sure they'll do better; Catholics are more pliable. But it's like saying that one broken leg is better than two.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Phat writes: No. It has already become symbolic and spiritualized. The intention verifies the actuality. Evidence will never trump symbolism. It might be for you and me and for the majority of Catholics - but not, I assume, for CS. Rome declares it a daily miracle. The bread and the wine are *actually* the body and blood of Christ. As the kids say, "yeh, right." Can a bigger lie be told?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CS writes: Catholic doctrine is that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus and they are not merely symbolic. How do you square that with the easily provable condition that the consecrated wafer is still just a wafer and the wine is just wine?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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CS writes: They distinguish between the substance, i.e. its essence, and the species, i.e. its outward appearance. The accident of the bread remains the same (it still looks like bread), but its essence has change (it has become something else). Yes, that sort of language-based twaddle worked before we could actually prove forensically that there is no change whatsoever, however measured, in the before and after bread and wine. You don't actually believe this stuff do you?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ZR writes: Maybe you literalists just need to get a little more art into your lives. I'm fine with art and I'm fine with imagery and metaphor. I'm also fine with 'on one level this and on another level that.' What I'm not fine with is the absolute statement that the bread and wine IS the body and blood. No messing about, no 'I know it's not really, but it has another meaning' but IS. It's the absolute that's the problem.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1
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ZR writes: I think CS is trying to tell you that it isn't "absolute"; it's philosophical. No, what he's trying to do is rationalise a belief that is incompatible with reality and he's smart enough to know it - so it's a bit of a problem and he'd really rather not talk about it anymore. Don't forget he said this this:
CS writes: Catholic doctrine is that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus and they are not merely symbolic. 'actual' not 'philosophical', not 'symbolic' Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
ZR writes: You claim to "know" what CS is thinking where I only think I understand what he's saying. I think he's trying to explain how the Church rationalizes the belief. I'm not claiming to know what he's thinking; I'm demonstrating what's he's doing - rationalising.
Why don't you cherry-pick dictionary definitions to make your point? I really don't care what definition is used; you're missing the point. You don't understand what Catholicism teaches and what a 'real' Catholic is required to believe. The transubstantiation is real. As CS says, it's not symbolism. It's a problem now because, of course, it's utter bullshit but that's why it's worth discussing.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CS writes: I'm not talking about my personal beliefs, I'm explaining what the Church's doctrine says. Which was why I asked this
Tangle writes: You don't actually believe this stuff do you? But you declined to answer.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Then I suggest you listen to what he's saying.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Show me where he says that he doesn't believe it himself. I'm still waiting for that answer. Regardless, he's still rationalising an impossible belief.
Not that it matters what CS believes, it's what Catholics are actually taught that matters. And that varies over the years and in which country. Like I say, they're pragmatists. And btw, don't make assumptions, I know as much as CS does about what Catholics are taught and are supposed to believe. It's been a while since I believed that eating meat on Friday was a sin though.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
CS writes: Exactly. It doesn't matter but it IS interesting. Why are you so shy? There's a problem of course. Transubstantiation is the defining miracle and qualifier of Catholicism. You promote yourself as a Catholic Scientist - the problem is obvious - bread and wine can't, scientifically, be the body and blood of Christ. So, what are you a scientist or a Catholic?Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Tangle Member Posts: 9516 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Jon writes: Are you lambasting them because they rise to meet the changing needs of their followers or because you believe they're only doing it for their own sake? The latter.Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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