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Author Topic:   Religious children have harder time between fact and fiction
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 5 of 63 (733869)
07-22-2014 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Diomedes
07-22-2014 9:46 AM


I'm not sure it's necessary for 5-and-6-year-olds to distinguish between fact and fiction. If they can voluntarily give up their belief in Santa Claus a few years later, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Diomedes, posted 07-22-2014 9:46 AM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 07-22-2014 1:54 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 12 of 63 (733962)
07-23-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
07-22-2014 1:54 PM


NoNukes writes:
Some false beliefs are not as harmless as Santa Claus.
That's what parents are for.
Children need to learn at their own pace to distinguish fact from fiction and parents need to protect them from the dangerous fictions.
Everybody should also retain an appreciation for fiction. What appalls me most about doctrinaire religionists is not that they can't recognize a talking snake as fiction but that they equate fiction with "lies".
If you appreciate fiction, there's a much finer line betwen "fact and fiction" and you have to work harder at understanding. That's something that children shouldn't be pushed into too quickly.

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 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 07-22-2014 1:54 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 24 of 63 (734025)
07-24-2014 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Tangle
07-24-2014 1:42 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Tangle writes:
You don't actually believe this stuff do you?
On a certain level, I believe in Santa Claus: Santa is us in the same sense that, "We have met the enemy and he is us." This is an important truth, whether it is literally true or not.
I can see how people could believe in transubstantiation on a similar level.
Maybe you literalists just need to get a little more art into your lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 1:42 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 2:39 PM ringo has replied
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 07-24-2014 5:15 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 27 of 63 (734028)
07-24-2014 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tangle
07-24-2014 2:39 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Tangle writes:
What I'm not fine with is the absolute statement that the bread and wine IS the body and blood.
I think CS is trying to tell you that it isn't "absolute"; it's philosophical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 2:39 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 2:57 PM ringo has replied
 Message 30 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2014 3:05 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 31 of 63 (734032)
07-24-2014 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Tangle
07-24-2014 2:57 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Tangle writes:
No, what he's trying to do is rationalise a belief that is incompatible with reality and he's smart enough to know it....
You claim to "know" what CS is thinking where I only think I understand what he's saying. I think he's trying to explain how the Church rationalizes the belief.
Tangle writes:
'actual' not 'philosophical', not 'symbolic'
Why don't you cherry-pick dictionary definitions to make your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 2:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 3:18 PM ringo has replied
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 3:23 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 38 of 63 (734039)
07-24-2014 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Tangle
07-24-2014 3:18 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Tangle writes:
I'm demonstrating what's he's doing - rationalising.
You're trying to demonstrate; you have not yet achieved demonstration.
Tangle writes:
You don't understand what Catholicism teaches and what a 'real' Catholic is required to believe.
I'm taking it from a real Catholic rather than from somebody who doesn't seem to understand what real Catholics are saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 3:18 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 3:51 PM ringo has replied
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 4:13 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 41 of 63 (734043)
07-24-2014 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Tangle
07-24-2014 3:51 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Tangle writes:
Then I suggest you listen to what he's saying
Are you channelling Faith? He told me I understand what he's saying. Message 34

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 3:51 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 4:23 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 43 of 63 (734045)
07-24-2014 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2014 4:04 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Catholic Scientist writes:
The substance must be what is changing rather than the form - i.e. transubstansiation
It occurs to me that that sounds a lot like mineralization of fossils - minerals replace the original materials while preserving the structure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 4:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 4:24 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 47 of 63 (734050)
07-24-2014 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Tangle
07-24-2014 4:23 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Tangle writes:
Show me where he says that he doesn't believe it himself.
Whether he believes it or not is irrelevant to the topic. Does he have a harder time distinguishing fact from fiction than if he had been raised with a strictly secular education? I don't see any evidence of that.
And the topic is about children. Even if they do have a harder time as children they may still grow out of it as adults. I grew up in an environment that "should" have made me a creationist but it never did.
Tangle writes:
And btw, don't make assumptions, I know as much as CS does about what Catholics are taught and are supposed to believe.
It's not an assumption; it's a conclusion based on your posts in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Tangle, posted 07-24-2014 4:23 PM Tangle has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 63 (734092)
07-25-2014 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by hooah212002
07-24-2014 3:05 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
hooah writes:
But the Catholic Church doesn't say it is philisophical.
Don't confuse "the Catholic Church" with the official position of the heirarchy. Your own reference says:
quote:
Only 30 percent of those surveyed believe they are actually receiving the Body and Blood, soul and divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.
29 percent think they are receiving bread and wine which symbolize the spirit and teachings of Jesus and, in so doing, are expressing their attachment to His person and words.
10 percent understand their action to be receiving bread and wine in which Jesus is present.
and 23 percent hold that they are receiving what has become the Body and Blood of Christ because of their personal belief. link
There is a diversity of opinion and understanding in the Church - i.e. among the members of the Church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2014 3:05 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
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