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Author Topic:   Religious children have harder time between fact and fiction
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 4 of 63 (733868)
07-22-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Diomedes
07-22-2014 9:46 AM


Diomedes writes:
They don't have the actual numbers and counts from the study
It's a fairly technical paper - I can email you the pdf if you'd like to pm your address
2.1.1. Participants
A total of sixty-six 5- and 6-year-old children participated (M = 5;8, SD = 6 months,
range: 4;11—6;7, 36 female). Participants were recruited from kindergarten classrooms in
public schools (n = 32) and parochial schools (n = 34) in Cambridge, MA, and the surrounding
area. Most participants were White (61%), although other ethnicities were represented
(21% Asian American, 18% African American). Irrespective of whether they
attended a public school or a parochial school, children were asked about church attendance.
Specifically, after presentation of the final story, children were asked, Does your family go
to services? Children who said yes were categorized as churchgoers. Children who said
no were categorized as non-churchgoers. This description of children’s religious home life
was confirmed through consultation with the kindergarten teachers. The majority of children
who said that they did attend services attended Christian services. We excluded the additional
few children who said that they attended Jewish Temple (n = 6), because several of
the stories used in the study are based on the New Testament (see Appendix A) and therefore
would be likely to be less familiar to children who grew up in a Jewish family. For the
32 children who attended public school, 16 children (M = 5;7 years, SD = 5 months, 7
females) were identified as churchgoers. The remaining 16 children (M = 5;8 years, SD = 6
months, 8 females) were identified as non-churchgoers. For the 34 children who attended
parochial school, 16 children (M = 5;9, SD = 5 months, 10 females) were identified as
churchgoers. The remaining 18 children (M = 5;9, SD = 7 months, 10 females) were identified
as non-churchgoers.
In summary, three groups of children had exposure to religion: churchgoers who
attended public school; non-churchgoers who attended parochial school; and churchgoers
who attended parochial school. A fourth group of childrennon-churchgoers attending
public schoolhad no exposure to religion in either church or school.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Diomedes, posted 07-22-2014 9:46 AM Diomedes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by dwise1, posted 07-25-2014 1:51 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 9 of 63 (733891)
07-22-2014 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by New Cat's Eye
07-22-2014 3:41 PM


CS writes:
The thing about the Catholics, though, is that they seem to be open to including new and updated information as we get it (like say theistic evolution), rather than digging their heals in on everything and indoctrinating children with all these anti-science mentalities (read: Creationism).
No Catholics are much worse, they're pragmatists.
They eventually change their rules to prevent themselves going out of business.
Losing converts to Islam in Africa because dead babies don't go to heaven? No problem, do away with Limbo.
All Catholics in modern developed countries use contraception which is a mortal sin. No problem, it's a matter of conscience.
The earth not the centre of the universe? Well ok, it's time to stop torturing people.
Priests must be celibate. We have a bunch of married Anglicans wanting to leave because of gay marriage. No problem they can be married Catholic priests.
2% of priests are paedophiles. No problem, we'll have our own rules and pretend we're above the law.
Massive recruitment problem because of child abuse. No problem let's look into allowing priests to marry.
Anything to survive eh?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-22-2014 3:41 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 12:24 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 07-24-2014 7:21 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 14 of 63 (733972)
07-23-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2014 12:24 PM


CS writes:
How does all that result in Catholic children being less able to distinguish fact from fiction than Evangelical ones?
You introduced the "Catholics are better than Creationists" argument, not me.
Or was that just some good old fashioned knee-jerk hatin' on the Catholics?
Or was this just a silly thing to say?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 12:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 1:46 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 16 of 63 (733976)
07-23-2014 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by New Cat's Eye
07-23-2014 1:46 PM


CS writes:
Better at not indoctrinating children so that they cannot distinguish between fact and fiction
Certainly better at changing their previous held firm facts into the fiction the rest of us already know when it becomes inconvenient/unsustainable. Which was the point of my comment. Creationists will die out - are dying out - because their beliefs are obviously demented. Catholics will carry on compromising forever to maintain their organisations.
The transubstantiation is the fiction that will die the hardest, but die it will. It'll be another matter of 'conscience'. How does that stack with fact and fiction that are taught to children?
It'd be interesting to see the same study contrasting Catholic and Evangelical children. I bet that the Catholic children would do better than the Evangelical ones.
I'm sure they'll do better; Catholics are more pliable. But it's like saying that one broken leg is better than two.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-23-2014 1:46 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 07-23-2014 5:03 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 18 of 63 (733986)
07-23-2014 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
07-23-2014 5:03 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Phat writes:
No. It has already become symbolic and spiritualized. The intention verifies the actuality. Evidence will never trump symbolism.
It might be for you and me and for the majority of Catholics - but not, I assume, for CS. Rome declares it a daily miracle. The bread and the wine are *actually* the body and blood of Christ. As the kids say, "yeh, right."
Can a bigger lie be told?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Phat, posted 07-23-2014 5:03 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 20 of 63 (734011)
07-24-2014 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2014 10:39 AM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
CS writes:
Catholic doctrine is that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus and they are not merely symbolic.
How do you square that with the easily provable condition that the consecrated wafer is still just a wafer and the wine is just wine?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 10:39 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 12:25 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 37 by nwr, posted 07-24-2014 3:45 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 22 of 63 (734022)
07-24-2014 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2014 12:25 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
CS writes:
They distinguish between the substance, i.e. its essence, and the species, i.e. its outward appearance.
The accident of the bread remains the same (it still looks like bread), but its essence has change (it has become something else).
Yes, that sort of language-based twaddle worked before we could actually prove forensically that there is no change whatsoever, however measured, in the before and after bread and wine.
You don't actually believe this stuff do you?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 12:25 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 2:17 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 26 of 63 (734027)
07-24-2014 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ringo
07-24-2014 2:17 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
ZR writes:
Maybe you literalists just need to get a little more art into your lives.
I'm fine with art and I'm fine with imagery and metaphor. I'm also fine with 'on one level this and on another level that.'
What I'm not fine with is the absolute statement that the bread and wine IS the body and blood. No messing about, no 'I know it's not really, but it has another meaning' but IS.
It's the absolute that's the problem.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 2:17 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 2:48 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 29 of 63 (734030)
07-24-2014 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by ringo
07-24-2014 2:48 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
ZR writes:
I think CS is trying to tell you that it isn't "absolute"; it's philosophical.
No, what he's trying to do is rationalise a belief that is incompatible with reality and he's smart enough to know it - so it's a bit of a problem and he'd really rather not talk about it anymore. Don't forget he said this this:
CS writes:
Catholic doctrine is that the bread and wine become the actual body and blood of Jesus and they are not merely symbolic.
'actual' not 'philosophical', not 'symbolic'
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 2:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 3:06 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 32 of 63 (734033)
07-24-2014 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
07-24-2014 3:06 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
ZR writes:
You claim to "know" what CS is thinking where I only think I understand what he's saying. I think he's trying to explain how the Church rationalizes the belief.
I'm not claiming to know what he's thinking; I'm demonstrating what's he's doing - rationalising.
Why don't you cherry-pick dictionary definitions to make your point?
I really don't care what definition is used; you're missing the point. You don't understand what Catholicism teaches and what a 'real' Catholic is required to believe. The transubstantiation is real. As CS says, it's not symbolism. It's a problem now because, of course, it's utter bullshit but that's why it's worth discussing.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 3:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 3:47 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 36 of 63 (734037)
07-24-2014 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2014 3:23 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
CS writes:
I'm not talking about my personal beliefs, I'm explaining what the Church's doctrine says.
Which was why I asked this
Tangle writes:
You don't actually believe this stuff do you?
But you declined to answer.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 3:23 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 39 of 63 (734040)
07-24-2014 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ringo
07-24-2014 3:47 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Then I suggest you listen to what he's saying.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 3:47 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 4:10 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 44 of 63 (734046)
07-24-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by ringo
07-24-2014 4:10 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
Show me where he says that he doesn't believe it himself. I'm still waiting for that answer. Regardless, he's still rationalising an impossible belief.
Not that it matters what CS believes, it's what Catholics are actually taught that matters. And that varies over the years and in which country. Like I say, they're pragmatists.
And btw, don't make assumptions, I know as much as CS does about what Catholics are taught and are supposed to believe.
It's been a while since I believed that eating meat on Friday was a sin though.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 4:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 4:25 PM Tangle has replied
 Message 47 by ringo, posted 07-24-2014 4:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 49 of 63 (734052)
07-24-2014 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by New Cat's Eye
07-24-2014 4:25 PM


Re: Symbolism, Belief & Intention
CS writes:
Exactly.
It doesn't matter but it IS interesting. Why are you so shy?
There's a problem of course. Transubstantiation is the defining miracle and qualifier of Catholicism. You promote yourself as a Catholic Scientist - the problem is obvious - bread and wine can't, scientifically, be the body and blood of Christ. So, what are you a scientist or a Catholic?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-24-2014 4:25 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9516
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 55 of 63 (734064)
07-25-2014 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
07-24-2014 7:21 PM


Jon writes:
Are you lambasting them because they rise to meet the changing needs of their followers or because you believe they're only doing it for their own sake?
The latter.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 07-24-2014 7:21 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
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