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Author | Topic: The Concept of God -- Need Logic Help | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
But He doesn't. He hides in His heaven, refusing to even show us that He exists. We put out the fires ourselves and then He punishes us for the damage. What's God's punishment for burning a house?Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
So God thinks of us as insects? Feel the love.
ringo writes:
No, it wouldn't. You have the power of life and death over any individual insect in your back yard. I doubt you'd bother to rescue a single one of them from being stepped on. If you deliberately wouldn't try to micromanage things like, say, putting out the fire in your neighbour's house, that would make you evil.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
So God thinks of us as insects? Feel the love. Not necessarily. All it takes to counter a proposition is a single counter example and I just wanted to show you that your own proposition was not a necessity. If you would like another proposition, how about this one? God gave you a perfectly good solar system in which to live and right now he is busy elsewhere with somebody whom he has given less than he has given you. So don't screw up yours. Another possibility? God loves insects just as much as he loves you. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: Unofortunately one of those is not like the others. In fact given a truly omnipotent and omniscient creator (and accepting the idea of a fixed future) it follows that God HAS dictated the daily actions of every living being whether they have free will or not.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
s. In fact given a truly omnipotent and omniscient creator (and accepting the idea of a fixed future) it follows that God HAS dictated the daily actions of every living being whether they have free will or not. Who says that the future is fixed? I am not sure why you consider that a reasonable assumption. Do you think that follows from what fundies say about Revelations? Exactly where does this idea come from. It certainly isn't something I believe. I'm genuinely puzzled PaulK. If you could expand on this I'd appreciate it. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: It's necessary for complete and infallible knowledge of the future. It's generally claimed that God has that sort of foreknowledge, so it seems a reasonable assumption. If I were looking for a Biblical example I'd go with Jesus' prediction that Peter would deny him three times before cock-crow. To get that right - involving multiple free will decisions by multiple people - seems quite impressive if free will decisions are not knowable in advance.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
"Burning a house" was the metaphor we were using for our failures.[/qs] What's God's punishment for burning a house? Edited by zombie ringo, : Fixed quote. Edited by zombie ringo, : Fixed quote again.
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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NoNukes writes:
I was responding to Phat's proposition, not stating one of my own.
All it takes to counter a proposition is a single counter example and I just wanted to show you that your own proposition was not a necessity. NoNukes writes:
And if we do screw it up? Another Flood? An Apocalypse? God gave you a perfectly good solar system in which to live and right now he is busy elsewhere with somebody whom he has given less than he has given you. So don't screw up yours. What I'm saying is: Go and help the people you've given less to. Leave us alone to live with our screw-ups. Give help to those who need it instead of giving punishment for "free will" mistakes. Edited by zombie ringo, : Addedmissingspace.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It's necessary for complete and infallible knowledge of the future. Is it necessary? I think there are other possibilities.
If I were looking for a Biblical example I'd go with Jesus' prediction that Peter would deny him three times before cock-crow. To get that right - involving multiple free will decisions by multiple people - seems quite impressive if free will decisions are not knowable in advance. Yes. That would be impressive, but if we are going to assume that some kind of infinite ability was involved, being "impressive" is not really the same as being impossible. I can at least imagine that Jesus accomplished it my knowing Peter really well (super naturally well) rather than by Yahweh tell him what Peter was going to do because it was pre-ordained. Are astronomical predictions of future lunar eclipses examples of predicting what is pre-ordained? Surely that's a fairly dubious proposition. I can imagine just as easily imagine that omniscience works by reading people and events and forecasting outcomes in a way analogous to forecasting the weather as opposed to simple having prior knowledge of everything that is going to happen because everything is under my own control or is predetermined.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
NoNukes writes: What's God's punishment for burning a house? "Burning a house" was the metaphor we were using for our failures. That's fine. I don't see how that changes the thrust of my question. Living with our own failures and our own successes is not the same thing as being punished. What sense of entitlement would justify that? Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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ringo Member (Idle past 443 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
NoNukes writes:
That's what I'm saying. If a god punished us on top of the natural consequences of our actions, that would be arbitrary and unproductive.
Living with our own failures and our own successes is not the same thing as being punished.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote:If the future isn't fixed it can't be infallibly known. It's a logically necessary precondition. quote: Even if Jesus had a good idea of what Peter would do I think that it would be considerably harder to work out the exact number of people who would challenge him before cock-crow. As I said, the actions of multiple people are involved.
quote: I don't think that fallible predictions count as omniscience.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Even if Jesus had a good idea of what Peter would do I think that it would be considerably harder to work out the exact number of people who would challenge him before cock-crow. As I said, the actions of multiple people are involved. Yes, it would be extremely hard. So what? Aren't we supposing that the feat was super natural? And why would an infalliable knowledge of the future not be achievable by simply extending the same principle, infinitely far. You insist that this could not work, but you do not give any explanation of why it would not. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
quote: It's difficult enough to suggest that free will decisions are quite amazingly predictable. Even if the last one held back for a couple of minutes the prediction would have failed.
quote: For perfect knowledge of the future to be possible the future must be fixed somehow. If you prefer to handle it by saying the the universe operates deterministically - including all free will decisions - then that's your view. I don't see how it helps you though. The mechanism isn't the problem I'm talking about - although determinism arguably makes the problem worse.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It's difficult enough to suggest that free will decisions are quite amazingly predictable. Even if the last one held back for a couple of minutes the prediction would have faileid. You continue to outline the difficulties, and I agree with you in each instance. But what you cannot explain is why those difficulties represent an impossibility for a being who can anticipate anything and everything and can make those assessments at a glance. Heck, maybe there was a little cheating in delaying the cock crow or with the challenges being given when they were. I agree that a scheme where everything is predetermined requires less imagination to envision. But neither scheme seems any more or less plausible than the other.
f you prefer to handle it by saying the the universe operates deterministically The universe does not operate deterministically, nor is it predetermined. I'm suggesting that neither of those things are obstacles to a being who is outside of the rules. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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