Death in Relation to the Creation and Fall

So it gives life. They ate from, and obtained, the knowledge of good and evil. But they didn't eat from, and gain, the life. So, ultimately, they will die. Is that what the authors intended?It seems like the trees "sustained" whatever they were of. And they could take it.

If none of the animals died before The Fall, then presumably man was a vegetarian. So then, why do we have canine teeth that are designed for tearing meat?Did The Fall cause our physical features to change too?And all the scripture that you have quoted only shows that you can interpret it to be saying what you want. It doesn't show that what you interpret is the right interpretation. It can also be interpreted to be talking about solely about spiritual death, and not body death.The Bible simply is not clear on this matter.

Sure. That's how we know Faith is wrong. If man was already living forever without any death, then eating from the powerful and forbidden Tree of Life wouldn't do anything at all. And that's just stupid.That's why she and her commentators don't have an answer, because there isn't one.

Hey, don't hate.If you start a thread on Star Wars then I'd talk to you about that too.

But its not clear at all. What your doing is starting with the idea that death did not enter into Creation, for people or animals, until the Fall, and then you are interpreting the scripture to be in line with that.The Scripture can just as easily be interpreted to be saying that death entered only into man, as has clearly been show in this thread. Ha! You think I'm immature? You cannot even accept the most basic facts about our world. They're are literally children who have more mature reasoning than you. You, the person who worships a book and cannot begin to bring themself to doubt a single word that it says, are the one who is sophomoric. Its not that nobody thought of the objection. Its that noboby has come up with the explanation.You have to be really stupid to believe that the story says that God made man immortal and also made a powerful and forbidden tree that made man immortal.What kind of idiot do you think God is? Of course I don't know everything, ya dingus.ABE:

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Gen 3:22

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And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

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Man would not live forever unless he ate from the tree of life.Pure and simple.Edited by Catholic Scientist, : see ABEEdited by Catholic Scientist, : typo

But that doesn't have anything to do with The Fall.

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Romans 8

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18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

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That doesn't have anything to do with The Fall either.

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Romans 6

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19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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The gift of God that is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord doesn't have anything to do with the Creation outside of man. Jesus didn't die for the cattle. In that chapter, Paul is talking about just death to man, not death to the whole Creation.

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Romans 5

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12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

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13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

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15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

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Again, Jesus doesn't grant the gift of righteousness to dogs and cats. It for man and man alone.Every single one of your arguments can be refuted.When Paul talks about The Fall, and sin causing death, he is talking about death to man.When he talks about the Creation decaying, he is not talking about that being caused by The Fall. Sure they have. Someone shows you how the Greek translation says that its death "to man" and then your only response is: "Oh, that's corrupted." Pssh. That's not arguing, that's acting like a child.But beside, they have now clearly been shown for sure. Sure, the story of Adam and Eve totally undoes the idea of evolution, but, the events in the story never actually happened. Its a fable, a myth, an allegory, not some true historical event. That is sophomoric.

No, it says that man would have to eat from the tree of life to be able to live forever. I mean its right here:

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Gen 3:22
And the Lord God said, The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

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If man is not allowed to eat from the tree of life, then he will no live forever. God never intended man to eat from the tree of life so God never intended to live forever, regardless of The Fall.Before The Fall, man still would not live forever unless he ate from the tree of life.

Not hate hate. "Don't hate" means don't make fun of people, which you were doing. You start it, you're the one saying we shouldn't be talking about this. I'm fine with discussing Genesis instead of Star Wars. Its whatever.

It totally answers. What are you talking about? You cannot even provide an argument, you're just saying it doesn't. But it clearly does. Like I said, you start with The Fall, and then you fit your interpretation of the scripture into it.But if you look at all your quotes in context and read what they mean, then you can see that they are not talking about The Fall at all.You're just imposing The Fall onto them.

No you didn't. I proved you wrong. I actually wrote out an argument and quoted scripture. All you've said is "Nuh-uh". You need to stop lying and actually write a rebuttal to my argument.As it sits, you have Jesus dying for dogs and cats.

Sure, as I've explained: You answer by starting with The Fall and then imposing it onto scripture.But if we look at the scripture in context, we can see its not talking about The Fall at all.So you've failed. You should keep trying. Maybe you'll start making sense.

That's because they're using it to impose the idea that The Fall causes death. See? Exactly, because The Fall causes death, then eating from the tree must not be the granter of immortality. Yeah, let's stop looking into that because it goes against what we're assuming (that there was no death before The Fall).You're explanation for this scripture:

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(NIV) He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.

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(KJV) And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

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Is that it is a mystery why the tree is there. When God made man, he made him immortal. And he also made the tree of life, which grants man immortality. That all must be true, because you believe that there was no death before The Fall.If we look at the story without your assumption, it implies that there was death before The Fall. The tree of life actually did grant man immortality like the story says.Like, if we look right above that passage:

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Gen 3 (NIV)

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17 To Adam he said, Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

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Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.

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God lists the penalties that man is to receive, and he doesn't mention that they loose their immortality. That's kind of a big one to gloss over.Now, I'm sure your commentators can come up with some explanation that results from assuming there was no death before The Fall, but this time we're looking at the story without that assumption.So, staying in this book, you get your no death before The Fall from the following:

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Gen 2

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(NIV) 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.

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(KJV)16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

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Its that whole "in the day" part that you interpret as meaning that specific day in particular. Without your assumption, it doesn't need to be that way.Its repeated again later:

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Gen 3

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(NIV) 2 The woman said to the serpent, We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’

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(KJV) 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

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3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

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But the whole "in the day" part is left out.Let's look at what the serpent says:

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Gen 3

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(NIV) 4 You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

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(KJV) 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

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5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

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So what does the story say happens after they eat it:

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6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.

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After they eat the fruit, their eyes were opened, just like the serpent said.It makes sense that the eating the fruit from the tree of like would grant them immortality. And if it did, then it doesn't make sense for man to have already been immortal before he ate the fruit. His eyes weren't already opened before eating the other fruit.The only reason you have to make the purpose of the tree of life to be a mystery, is because you're assuming that there was no death before The Fall.

Do you admit that you don't get your idea of 'no death before The Fall' from the story of The Fall? Do you admit that you are getting that idea from the New Testament and then are imposing it onto the story of The Fall? For man. There is no death for man, according to that verse. I've already covered this:

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and with Romans 5:12 emphasizing the same cause and effect, that death ENTERED into the world because of sin, again also in the immediate context about humanity, it has to apply to animals because they die too.

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In that chapter, Paul is talking about just death to man, not death to the whole Creation.

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Romans 5

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12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

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13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

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15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

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Again, Jesus doesn't grant the gift of righteousness to dogs and cats. It for man and man alone.

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Right, for OUR sins. Not for cats and dogs. Covered:

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Romans 6

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19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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The gift of God that is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord doesn't have anything to do with the Creation outside of man. Jesus didn't die for the cattle.

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Again, Jesus died for US, not the cattle. Covered as well:

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No, I am not imposing it on the scripture. When scripture says that the whole Creation is looking forward to release from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION, which means death, that is not just about human beings.

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But that doesn't have anything to do with The Fall.

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Romans 8

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18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

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Paul isn't referring to The Fall there. There is no indication that he is.As I said in Message 81:

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Every single one of your arguments can be refuted.

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When Paul talks about The Fall, and sin causing death, he is talking about death to man.

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When he talks about the Creation decaying, he is not talking about that being caused by The Fall.

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Your response to that amounted to: "Nuh-uh"You haven't provided me an argument for why I should interpret those scriptures as you do. That's just another imposition from assuming that there was no death before The Fall.You have to provide the reasons for making that assumption, not just expect others to assume it as well.

But if we look at those scriptures individually, we can see that they don't say what you need them to say in order to, in concert with each other, prove that there was no death before the fall.I'm here quoting scripture and explaining how and what it is saying, and you're just sticking to sound bytes and repeating yourself. You're just repeating yourself, and I've already addressed this. You don't move the discussion forward by repeating yourself. You need to explain why I should interpret those scriptures like you do. You need to explain why, when I actually look up the scripture and read it, Paul is talking about man alone in Romans 5. Please quote a broader portion of that chapter and explain how Paul is talking about anything more that man alone. Again, you just repeat yourself. Why, when we look at and read Romans 6, is Paul talking about man alone and not all of the creatures? Please quote a broader portion of that chapter and explain how Paul is talking about anything more than man alone. In Romans 8, Paul is not talking about anything that has to do with The Fall. Please quote a broader portion of that chapter and explain to me how that has anything to do with The Fall. But you haven't shown that. All you've done is claim it and repeat it.Please show us how the scriptures, each one individually, makes the case you're pinning on them so we can see how they add up to your narrative.

I'm curious: what is the scriptural support for that?