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Author Topic:   Bill Nye vs. Ken Ham
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 502 of 824 (719637)
02-15-2014 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by Dr Adequate
02-15-2014 10:45 PM


Darwin's racism
He considered the "savage" human races to be inferior due to not having evolved as far as the white races. Sure seems apparent to me that he thought of his theory in terms of grades of inferior to superior.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 508 of 824 (719644)
02-15-2014 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 505 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2014 11:09 PM


Re: Trashing Henry Morris, father of Creationism
Fine. Who cares? I wouldn't think a simple fact would generate this much rancor. Good grief. We KNOW that the Nazis used evolution to justify the Holocaust; and we KNOW that Margaret Sanger used it to justify promoting abortion among blacks as an inferior race. And when I read Origin of Species not too long ago I was actually shocked at whatever Darwin wrote along the same lines, which Dr. A says he didn't say but I remember being shocked at SOMETHING he said along these lines.. I'll have to look for it later.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 509 of 824 (719645)
02-15-2014 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 507 by DevilsAdvocate
02-15-2014 11:35 PM


Re: Darwin's racism
The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form; but this objection will not appear of much weight to those who, from general reasons, believe in the general principle of evolution. Breaks often occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest alliesbetween the Tarsius and the other Lemuridae between the elephant, and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and all other mammals. But these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct.
At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now ; between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.;
Doesn't this look to you like Darwin put the different races on a hierarchy of inferiority to superiority?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 507 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 02-15-2014 11:35 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 512 of 824 (719648)
02-16-2014 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 503 by Coyote
02-15-2014 11:05 PM


Appreciation of Darwin
Here are my two posts on the subject:A Creationist Appreciation of Darwin
He doesn't name Creationism as such but the arguments he opposed were largely creationist type arguments, such ideas as that some species were separately created for a particular purpose. As I say in my posts these ideas were not only biologically wrong they were wrong in relation to the Bible.
Here's some of my first post on the subject:
Despite creationist objections to Darwin and to the theory of evolution that developed from his work, it really ought to be recognized and acknowledged that some of Darwin's observations have been of value to creationism, as well as to biology in general. I just realized this after some rereading of his Origin of Species and being reminded of the impression I had when I first read it back before I was a Christian. I enjoyed the book enormously then. I always enjoyed reading someone who could lead me through a well-presented argument and Darwin does that in his careful measured way. He's a genuine thinker. His observations are well described and well used in the service of his theory; his conclusions are logical and easy to follow.
This time around I have an entirely different perspective, of course. I notice things I wouldn't have noticed forty years ago; I have objections I didn't have then. But in spite of all that I find myself again impressed with his methodical presentation of evidence and clear arguments.
This time around I was also struck by some ideas for which I think he should even be thanked by creationists. The creationism of Darwin's day was a pretty subjective affair that needed the sharp kicks Darwin administered in his Origin. Special Creation as it was called then was such a feeble excuse for a scientific position it didn't take much to topple it, and even his first edition changed many minds, as he indicates in the Preface to a later edition:
"Until recently the great majority of naturalists believed that species were immutable productions, and had been separately created."
"Until recently" means "until the publication of the first edition of the Origin of Species."
I'm sure it seems that a creationist should grieve at the success of Darwin's argument for evolution, but the creationism he reveals in his book is not the creationism it should have been. For one thing, the idea of special creation of immutable species was used to explain anything and everything. Whatever was observed was attributed to the organism's having been created for that purpose. At the beginning of Chapter 9, Hybridism, for instance, Darwin says:
"The view commonly entertained by naturalists is that species, when intercrossed, have been specially endowed with sterility in order to prevent their confusion."
That is, sterility is observed in some hybrids and the explanation from special creation is that they were made that way for a purpose. It's the sort of answer that would stop all thought in its tracks rather than stimulate further investigation into the reason for the sterility.
In Chapter 13, Geographical Distribution, he says something that suggests that the belief in special creation included the unbiblical idea of continuing or periodic creation over time, which is far from the once-for-all-time creation as described in Genesis.
Here he's commenting on an island devoid of mammals and remarks:
"It cannot be said that there has not been time for the creation of mammals; many volcanic islands are sufficiently ancient...."
Of course there would be no question of the time needed if the prevailing creationist view was that all living things had been created at once as reported in Genesis 1 and not created for particular locations at later particular times.
And he goes on to demonstrate the uselessness, even the absurdity of the creationist understanding:
"Although terrestrial mammals do not occur on oceanic islands, aerial mammals occur on almost every island..." "Why has the supposed creative force produced bats and no other mammals on remote islands?"
He answers that the most probable explanation is they weren't created just for the islands, it's simply that bats could have flown the distance whereas terrestrial animals had no way to get there.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 513 of 824 (719649)
02-16-2014 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 511 by DevilsAdvocate
02-16-2014 12:04 AM


Re: Darwin's racism
I know what he was saying. You don't seem to want to admit the hierarchy of GENETIC superiority he was implying.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 515 of 824 (719651)
02-16-2014 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 514 by DevilsAdvocate
02-16-2014 12:15 AM


Re: Darwin's racism
He's implying that whites are civilized because we're genetically superior, and the "savage" races never got civilized because they are inherently genetically inferior. THAT's what I meant.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 517 of 824 (719653)
02-16-2014 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 516 by DevilsAdvocate
02-16-2014 12:17 AM


Re: Darwin's racism
Science doesn't recognize one organism being "higher" than another or more evolved than another.
Unfortunately it looks like Darwin did have such a hierarchy in mind.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 524 of 824 (719660)
02-16-2014 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 522 by dwise1
02-16-2014 12:34 AM


Re: Darwin's racism
Who really teaches that blacks are inferior to whites? Christianity!
From the evidence you gave I'd say it wasn't Christianity but Hollywood.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 543 of 824 (719703)
02-16-2014 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 540 by Percy
02-16-2014 4:35 PM


Re: Trashing Darwin?
One more time: I get it from the quote from Darwin himself, just read it as it seems to present itself to me, as implying an EVOLUTIONARY distance between the civilized races and the "savage" races, which he hopes will be ended with an even higher evolution of the civilized making an even wider gap between them and the baboon "instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla. " As I read this he is saying there is at present not a very wide gap between the negro and the gorilla, and implying another evolutionary gap between the negro and the civilized races, which he hopes [abe:] will come to an end as the civilized races eliminate the savage races and become even more civilized. That's how I read what he wrote. [/abe]
Darwin himself may not have had racist attitudes. The point is that this paragraph reads to me as implying that his THEORY assumes evolutionary differences (which today we'd call genetic differences) between human groups.
The great break in the organic chain between man and his nearest allies, which cannot be bridged over by any extinct or living species, has often been advanced as a grave objection to the belief that man is descended from some lower form; but this objection will not appear of much weight to those who, from general reasons, believe in the general principle of evolution. Breaks often occur in all parts of the series, some being wide, sharp and defined, others less so in various degrees; as between the orang and its nearest alliesbetween the Tarsius and the other Lemuridae between the elephant, and in a more striking manner between the Ornithorhynchus or Echidna, and all other mammals. But these breaks depend merely on the number of related forms which have become extinct.
At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now ; between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.;
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 545 of 824 (719706)
02-16-2014 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by Coyote
02-16-2014 7:53 PM


Re: Trashing Darwin?
The context suggests evolutionary differences, and I won't be disappointed if that's not what he meant, but it reads like that to me.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 550 of 824 (719718)
02-17-2014 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 549 by PaulK
02-17-2014 1:23 AM


Re: Trashing Darwin?
Oddly enough I have NO wish in this matter at all, I merely honestly read that paragraph to imply that the differences between the civilized and savage races are evolutionary differences, same as they are between humans and apes. Honestly that's the truth.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 552 of 824 (719720)
02-17-2014 2:26 AM
Reply to: Message 551 by PaulK
02-17-2014 2:24 AM


Re: Trashing Darwin?
The point was that the PARAGRAPH presents the THEORY in that light. Everything I've said is based on how I read what that paragraph says. It suggests to me that that was DARWIN's view of the theory at that time.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 554 of 824 (719722)
02-17-2014 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 553 by PaulK
02-17-2014 2:33 AM


Re: Trashing Darwin?
Well, I've already indicated what I see in the paragraph that suggests Darwin has an evolutionary explanation for the differences between the races as he has for the differences between the species.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 562 of 824 (719756)
02-17-2014 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 561 by saab93f
02-17-2014 8:25 AM


Re: Trashing Darwin?
All I can do is say again that I have no agenda and I'm being completely honest about all of this. When I first read that paragraph, or reread it a couple years ago now, I was rather shocked by it then because it does appear to say what many people took evolution to mean in those days. That is, it implies that human races are on different levels of evolution just as humans are in relation to apes, different levels meaning "lower" and "higher." That was of course the way it was thought of in Darwin's day so he didn't invent it, but it does appear from that paragraph that he accepted it and provided an evolutionary explanation for it. Truly, honestly, that is how I read that paragraph, and I don't see how it can be read any other way. No doubt these things are thought of differently now, but I don't think you can honestly say Darwin had today's point of view.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1475 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 563 of 824 (719757)
02-17-2014 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 557 by Percy
02-17-2014 7:31 AM


Re: Trashing Darwin?
What I disagreed with most was the association of evolution with the Nazis. The Nazis were correct that a dominant race might be dominant because it evolved superior qualities, but evolution defines no inherently superior qualities. A trait is deemed superior if it allows an organism to better compete in a given environment, but that same trait may make an organism less competitive in a different environment. Move the blond fair-skinned Nazis to equatorial regions and watch them succumb to heat prostration and skin cancer.
I certainly don't agree with the Nazis' understanding of what makes a race superior or of the theory evolution. My only point was that in the paragraph by Darwin it was clearly implied that human races are on lower or higher levels of evolution, that's Darwin himself saying that as I read that paragraph. Perhaps he himself lost track of the implications of his own theory at that point, or merely intended to be explaining the generally accepted idea without sharing it, but as written that is simply what it appears to say: civilized man is evolutionarily superior to "savage" man. He also didn't propose the extermination of the "lower" races, of course, but there is the implication that it would be a good thing if it happened. Especially when he ends his paragraph by saying that it would be better if there were an even greater gap between civilized man and the apes due to civilized man's evolving even higher while the "lower" races die out.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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