Have You Ever Read Ephesians?

Testing. What is "radical" in the sense of really "going to the ROOT" is that all the exhortations of Ephesians are for Christians to live in oneness with a resurrected and available Christ. I think critics here are simply subtracting the indwelling Christ from the picture and seeing only mundane ethical instructions which any unbeliever could request of any other unbeliever.Before you get to chapter 5 it seems little appreciation is given by skeptics to Paul laying the ground work of the resurrected Christ being able to indwell men and women such that He lives in them. They are no longer "alienated from the life of God" (4:18) Maybe to your priorities that means nothing. But to God's priorities and the believers' priorities it means everything. It is not "What would Jesus do?" But is "Allow Jesus to Live again, this time within you."The total divorcing of the exhortations from the previous teachings in Ephesians is very shallow apprehension of this book.Christ was subject to men and women for 30 years. And He was God become a man.Christ was subject to his mother Mary - while He was God become a man. Christ was subject to Joseph the husband of Mary - while He [Jesus] was God incarnate. Christ was subject to learn a trade as an apprentice from Joseph - while He was God incarnate Who created TREES.In fact for 30 years Christ blended in with all the neighbors and family relatives in Nazareth, apparently making no major stir. And He was subject to family, employers, and probably elders of all types. And He was God Himself become a man.At the age of 30 He commences His history shattering ministry. He begins to open His mouth and teach. He speaks of what He IS. He teaches out of what He has LIVED. His description of the perfect human life is a description of what He has been doing quietly for 30 years blending in with the people all around Him.Now on this side of His resurrection He is able to impart His Spirit into His followers. From this side of His death and rising from the dead Christ is able to dispense Himself into wives, husbands, slaves, slave masters, politicians, tax collectors, merchants, zealots, fishermen, soldiers, jailors, guards, even members of Caesar's household.The exhortations of chapter five follow Paul's expounding of how this Christ lives within the disciples to empower them, live out from within them. This is "radical" in the sense that Richh means I think.It is not radical for a husband to love his wife in his old nature, if he can. It is radical for a Christian husband to be "filled in spirit" and love his wife as Christ loved the church - laying down his life for his wife.The natural unregenerated man is without the Spirit of Christ. It is radical to receive God into our being. And it is radical to live a life blending with His empowering as in a kind of divine "power steering" that enables Jesus Christ to live again on the earth from within those who have received Him.

quote:

---

And what is the surpassing greatnes of His power TOWARD US who believe, according to the operation of the might of His strength, Which He caused to operate in Christ Jesus in raising Him from the dead and seating Him at His right hand in the heavenlies far above all rule and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named not only in this age but also in that which is to come. (1:19-21)

---

You see, the Christian wife has within her a Divine One who is above her husband above, in fact, all rule and authority and power and lordship. As God become a man can be subject to Joseph as guardian and teacher, so now the believing wife has the same power operating in her to live a life which calls for subjection.The believer found in a master / servant situation also has this Ultimately subject one Christ within him, empowering him also to obey his earthly master.Conversly the ancient slave master has the empowering from the indwelling Christ to render to his slave what is "just and equal" . "Masters, grant to your slaves that which is just and equal, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1)You are honing in only on the ethical command, divorcing it from the context of God in Christ living in the Christians. You're missing more than half of the importance of the book. It is WHO is doing the loving of the wife from within the husband. And it is WHO is doing the obeying the husband from within the wife.These are exhortations to allow the Christ who has been dispensed into their beings to live again on the earth from within them - mingled and blended with them.They are no more "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18) . While that is perhaps no big deal for the world it is tremendous and "radical" news for the kingdom of God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Someone may be joining in shortly to talk about the Body of Christ and the Wife and Bride. This poster wants to talk about the Wife being only Israel. So maybe a few of us may look into another aspect of the epistle besides the arguments on who wrote it or why it speaks to wives and slaves the way it does.Stick around a bit for this new poster.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Depends on who you are talking to. Many think Romans is controversial. Others find Galatians plenty controversial. You seem to be the one vastly hung up on what Paul gives relatively light attention to in Ephesians in contrast to considerable more emphasis on Christ and His mystical Body.All that Paul teaches in Ephesians has in view accomplishing the high climax of chapters two, three and four - the habitation of God in spirit, the household of God, the one Body.The ones making a mountain out of a molehill are the people totally chocking on his words to those who find themselves new lovers of Christ while in one of the imperfect social systems of the day.Both in Ephesians and in Philemon with Colossians Paul's vastly greater burden of attention is to building up the church life. They way some of you criticize Paul you would think that his epistles would open with statements about how he was sent by God to reform social systems for the benefit of the furtherance of the Roman empire.Paul's focus in all three books is the new covenant church being built up as an anti-testimony to godless, Christless world "alienated from the life of God"The "concern" of Romans, Ephesians, Colossians, and Philemon is basically the same. What is best for the building up of the new testament church as the expression of Christ being all in all - lived out to the full in every constituent.The concerned is expressed in varied ways. The situations are not identical. His goal does not shift. And the consistency of vision argues for one mind being behind all the letters.You all are trying to stir up a Jupiter size hurricane in a teapot. Paul has to deal with people turning to Christ's Gospel in all kinds of environments.The criticisms I have heard here seem like Paul demanding that prostitutes submit to their pimps and children being molested submit to their pedophiles. Some of you are making it sound as if Paul is instructing the mugged to submit to their muggers and the raped to acquiesce to those violating them.The moral offence that some of you are reading into Philemon and Ephesians is overblown. That passages were exploited by slave holders is not the fault of the New Testament. Men ALWAYS have exploited things found in the Bible in one way or another since Genesis 4. There Lamech twisted God's words concerning Cain to justify an unpunished homicide committed by himself (Gen. 4:23)Christ gave His disciples plenty of heads up that exploitation and twisting of the words of God would abound.Since we know that no one is getting away with anything we are not discouraged to follow Christ. "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, was it not in Your name that we prophesied, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name did many works of power ?

​

And then I will declare to them: I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness." (Matt. 7:22,23) He never acknowledged many things done under the banner of Christ. He never approved many things, even seemingly supernatural tasks supposedly done in His name. They were not done according to the Father's will. They will be counted as reckless or lawless - not within the guidelines of how a disciple of Christ should live.And God has many ways to further perfect His children after the second coming of Christ. I do not say only unbelievers are there rebuked in Matthew 7:22,23.We have Paul concurring that some will lose reward and be saved yet only as through fire. And he is speaking to Christians. "If anyone's [Christian's] work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward. If anyone's [again Christian's] work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15) Some of us realize that all believers will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ. And all unbelievers at the great white throne judgment. Evil men and imposters will go from bad to worse.But the disciples living Christ and building well upon that foundation endure. It is certainly not in vain. If all wayward "thinking" concerning the word of God was able to halt His will then the move of God would have stopped probably in the third chapter of Genesis.The gates of Hades still have not prevailed to destroy the Christian church though they have tried.And Christians who were Christians while they were servants did not stop in its tracks the moving of God to build up "a habitation of God in spirit". And master of slaves in the church life has not stopped the Body of Christ from building up itself in love.The imperfect and even bad social orders have been a challenge. They have not been a defeat to the church of Christ. That is not in Paul's day nor latter.But some of you are attempting very hard to portray Paul as morally corrupt. It really doesn't work.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Jesus gave this teaching about masters and slaves in Luke 17:7-10

quote:

---

But which you, having a slave who is plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, come immediately and recline at table?

​

Will he not rather say to him, Prepare something that I may dine, and gird yourself and serve me until I eat an drink; and after that you will eat and drink ?

​

He does not thank the slave because he did the things which were ordered, does he ?

​

So also you, when you do all the things which are ordered you, say, We are unprofitable slaves; we have done what we ought to have done."

---

For those of you condemning the Apostle Paul for giving instructions to Christian slave owners and Christian slaves, do you also condemn Jesus Christ for giving example of slave / master interaction to His disciples here ?Do you severely chastise Christ implying His disciples might have had slaves - "Which of you, having a slave who is plowing or tending sheep ... etc." ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Greetings Richh,The comments remind me of how much the Christians of old, who were closer to the events, already carefully sifted through the plethora of spiritual writings that were around. To think that 2000 years latter some skeptical scholars originated such cautionary discrimination is absurd hubris.It is also evident that the apostles themselves were careful to ascertain what was a genuine report of what Jesus said from an distorted rumor. At least we see John setting the record straight about misunderstandings circulating.

quote:

---

" This word therefore went out among the brothers, that that disciple would not die, yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but, If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? " (John 21:23)

---

John set the record straight on misunderstandings among the early disciples so that the truth would be passed down to us.Often due credit is not given to the integrity of these apostles. Now I will have to go back over this thread to see what it was all about.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.