Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 50 (9179 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: Jorge Parker
Post Volume: Total: 918,215 Year: 5,472/9,624 Month: 497/323 Week: 137/204 Day: 7/4 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Hello everyone, and my senior paper
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 70 (692804)
03-07-2013 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by KevinAthans
03-07-2013 4:07 PM


You insulted me.
With which words?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 4:07 PM KevinAthans has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 4:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
KevinAthans
Junior Member (Idle past 4147 days)
Posts: 16
From: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Joined: 03-06-2013


Message 17 of 70 (692805)
03-07-2013 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
03-07-2013 3:22 PM


If you think the history of how science came to be, and the religious involvement, isn't important, fine. I am not sure why you are under the impression that there is science vs theology...Thoughout much of history they were the same thing...
okay, so you can look in a microscope without reading Darwin, but I bet you cannot explain to people the history of the creationism-evolution controversy. You may say, so what? Well it is quite simple...The way we get rid of this controversy is to educate people about it. Of course you will never convince the creationists of one thing or another, but you can explain the facts to those that are ignorant on the topic. A scientist arguing science, and a creationist arguing theology accomplishes nothing. One is arguing apples, the other oranges. They will simply not agree, period. But if people understand the history of the debate, the population can understand it and make the correct decisions.
Edited by KevinAthans, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-07-2013 3:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-07-2013 9:44 PM KevinAthans has not replied

  
KevinAthans
Junior Member (Idle past 4147 days)
Posts: 16
From: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Joined: 03-06-2013


Message 18 of 70 (692807)
03-07-2013 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by New Cat's Eye
03-07-2013 4:12 PM


Well it was these that got me specifically...
"OMG, sooo suprised! Guess what: I can still calculate the velocity of a ball from the derivative of its position with respect to time both before and after knowing that. So why did it matter at all?"
I simply brought up a point and you respond with "OMG, sooo suprised." Does that seem more friendly to you or more insulting and arrogant? Like I said, I was only looking tell about my paper, not discuss why you think history is irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 4:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 5:01 PM KevinAthans has replied
 Message 29 by Theodoric, posted 03-07-2013 5:40 PM KevinAthans has not replied

  
KevinAthans
Junior Member (Idle past 4147 days)
Posts: 16
From: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Joined: 03-06-2013


Message 19 of 70 (692809)
03-07-2013 4:31 PM


Would it make you all happy if I said the history of science is more important to non-scientists than a science class is? I still think a biologist should read Darwin, but to your average person, I still think A history of science course does a lot more than a biology course...

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Genomicus, posted 03-07-2013 4:36 PM KevinAthans has not replied
 Message 36 by PaulK, posted 03-08-2013 1:28 AM KevinAthans has not replied
 Message 64 by Taq, posted 03-12-2013 5:46 PM KevinAthans has not replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 2055 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


(1)
Message 20 of 70 (692810)
03-07-2013 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by KevinAthans
03-07-2013 4:31 PM


Hi Kevin,
Would it make you all happy if I said the history of science is more important to non-scientists than a science class is? I still think a biologist should read Darwin, but to your average person, I still think A history of science course does a lot more than a biology course...
That depends on the purpose of this history of science course or biology course. If the purpose is to educate individuals on the cultural issues surrounding Darwinian evolution, then yes, a history of science course would be quite instructive. On the other hand, if the purpose is to, for example, show the students that there is scientific evidence for the evolutionary theory, then a biology course is preferable. It really depends on the purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 4:31 PM KevinAthans has not replied

  
Genomicus
Member (Idle past 2055 days)
Posts: 852
Joined: 02-15-2012


Message 21 of 70 (692812)
03-07-2013 4:42 PM


I think some of us might be talking past each other.
E.g., Kevin argued that:
The history of science is more important, in my opinion, than a degree in science. Most biologists have not even read Darwin’s works. Without an understanding of the origins of the things they study, how can they know what they are studying?
What we need here is context. Is an education in the history of science more important than an education in science? That completely depends on one's purpose. You cannot say that one is more important than the other unless you define the context.
For example, in discussing the cultural issues surrounding evolution, investigating the history of science might be beneficial in demonstrating to creationists that the goal of evolutionary theory really isn't to turn everyone into atheists. On the other hand, if a city is being hit with a new virus strain, a degree in science is going to do far more good for the city than an education in the history of science.

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 5:03 PM Genomicus has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 70 (692813)
03-07-2013 5:01 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by KevinAthans
03-07-2013 4:21 PM


Well it was these that got me specifically...
"OMG, sooo suprised! Guess what: I can still calculate the velocity of a ball from the derivative of its position with respect to time both before and after knowing that. So why did it matter at all?"
Its just a little snark, man. Geez, its nothing personal.
I simply brought up a point and you respond with "OMG, sooo suprised." Does that seem more friendly to you or more insulting and arrogant? Like I said, I was only looking tell about my paper, not discuss why you think history is irrelevant.
Well, you're paper's not done, so... all we really have to discuss here is your point on the relevance of history.
Would it make you all happy if I said the history of science is more important to non-scientists than a science class is? I still think a biologist should read Darwin, but to your average person, I still think A history of science course does a lot more than a biology course...
Well, that does make your point more clear. But it still depends on what it is important for.
I happen to think that, generally speaking, a good science education is more important that a good history one. But in regards to understanding the evolution vs creation debate, I can see how knowing the history behind it would be very helpful. Especially with regards to the fact that scientists weren't on some anti-religion crusade like creationists seem to think.
If you think the history of how science came to be, and the religious involvement, isn't important, fine. I am not sure why you are under the impression that there is science vs theology...Thoughout much of history they were the same thing...
okay, so you can look in a microscope without reading Darwin, but I bet you cannot explain to people the history of the creationism-evolution controversy. You may say, so what? Well it is quite simple...The way we get rid of this controversy is to educate people about it. Of course you will never convince the creationists of one thing or another, but you can explain the facts to those that are ignorant on the topic.
I think you might have been mislead on how big of a controversy there really is.
But I do see a good point in there. Creationists are not going to be convinced of evolution by throwing a bunch of science at them and I think you might be onto something with explaining the history of the emergence of the theory as a way to show that its not really about destroying religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 4:21 PM KevinAthans has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 5:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
KevinAthans
Junior Member (Idle past 4147 days)
Posts: 16
From: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Joined: 03-06-2013


Message 23 of 70 (692814)
03-07-2013 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Genomicus
03-07-2013 4:42 PM


Fair enough. I tried to keep my intro as short as possible...I thought I had said too much already...I just kind of glossed over that because it wasn't a major point in my project...but I will explain...
In reference to the creation-evolution controversy, specifically, or let’s say the credibility of science, an understanding of the history of science is far more important to people. I have taken biology classes, I have taken history classes, and I have taken philosophy classes. As far as this debate goes, I find the history of science to be far more valuable. I have also found a class in scientific reasoning to be more valuable. There are a lot of bad studies out there that are statistically irrelevant. If a scientific study does not use proper procedure, a representative sample, a large enough sample, ect, the study is pointless. Studies that tell us nothing and fraud in science creates issues. Many people see science as a tool used by a group of people to persuade others of their views. The creationists, specifically, see science as a similar line of thinking as is used in theology. This is obviously incorrect. Scientific thought dates back to the time of the Ancient Greeks and has evolved and changed over time. It was once intertwined with theology, it then started to pull away and has become what it is today. If people understand how and why this happened, understood the history and the context of it, as well as the social implications, one can make a better argument for why science is legitimate and not something that is faith based.
Yes, if we are working with a strain of bacteria, do sciencebut
making someone, which either does not believe in science, or is unsure of it, take classes in it is pointless for the most part. Some people will accept evolution because of a biology class they took, but I find history much more persuasive
Better?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Genomicus, posted 03-07-2013 4:42 PM Genomicus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-08-2013 12:25 PM KevinAthans has not replied

  
KevinAthans
Junior Member (Idle past 4147 days)
Posts: 16
From: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Joined: 03-06-2013


Message 24 of 70 (692815)
03-07-2013 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by New Cat's Eye
03-07-2013 5:01 PM


It looks like we have some agreement. Sorry if I did get a little butt-hurt.
I do have one question though...What do you mean by this?
"I think you might have been mislead on how big of a controversy there really is."
Do you mean I am underestimating it, overestimating it, or are you talking in the scientific field?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 5:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 5:13 PM KevinAthans has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 70 (692816)
03-07-2013 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by KevinAthans
03-07-2013 5:07 PM


If you type:
[qs]quotes are easy[/qs]
then it becomes
quotes are easy
"qs" means quote shaded. There also just regular "quote" that looks like this:
quote:
quotes are easy
Which I reserve for quotes that are not from the person I'm replying to. You can also use the "Peek" button at the bottom right of each post to see the exact text that was entered in the box. That'll show you how to do some of the other formatting.
I do have one question though...What do you mean by this?
"I think you might have been mislead on how big of a controversy there really is."
Do you mean I am underestimating it, overestimating it, or are you talking in the scientific field?
Overestimating. I don't think there's that much of a controversy. The creationists aren't that numerous, they're just really loud.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 5:07 PM KevinAthans has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 5:19 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
KevinAthans
Junior Member (Idle past 4147 days)
Posts: 16
From: Apple Valley, MN, USA
Joined: 03-06-2013


Message 26 of 70 (692818)
03-07-2013 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by New Cat's Eye
03-07-2013 5:13 PM


Oh, okay. Thanks for the quote info.
I do not know if I am overestimating it. Something like 50% of Americans do not believe in evolution. There are also constantly court cases about it. Look at the mess Kansas is in with their board of education. I know most Christians do not have a problem with evolution, but I do not think this is a small problem, nor do I think it is going away any time soon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 5:13 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-07-2013 5:28 PM KevinAthans has replied
 Message 57 by onifre, posted 03-08-2013 7:30 PM KevinAthans has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 70 (692820)
03-07-2013 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by KevinAthans
03-07-2013 5:19 PM


Something like 50% of Americans do not believe in evolution.
You gotta look at the way the survey questions are phrased. I doubt that many people have a problem with RM+NS as an explanation for how species diversify.
People start getting hesitant when they think about humans evolving from "monkeys", though. But we wanna feel special.
Too, there's people who think that god used evolution to create organisms so they might still count as a part of the creationist group in a survey even though they don't doubt evolution.
There are also constantly court cases about it.
It only takes one person to propose a law. And those are copied from templates that are provided by groups like the DI.
What looks like a strong movement turns out to be a small group of people making a lot of noise.
I know most Christians do not have a problem with evolution, but I do not think this is a small problem, nor do I think it is going away any time soon.
People who have been creationists their whole lives aren't going to change their minds, but they will die some day. I don't think its spreading very much so I see it going away on its own eventually.
Go ahead and try to help, though. No reason not to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 5:19 PM KevinAthans has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by KevinAthans, posted 03-08-2013 12:56 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6444
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 28 of 70 (692823)
03-07-2013 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by KevinAthans
03-07-2013 2:32 PM


KevinAthans writes:
All I am going to say to that, is that view is the very reason you should study the history of science.
Oh, I have studied it because I find it interesting. But it does not help at all with the science.
KevinAthans writes:
Scientists look at rock layers and fossils the same as historians look at artifacts and ruins.
No, they don't. The similarity that you see is mainly superficial.

Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 2:32 PM KevinAthans has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by KevinAthans, posted 03-08-2013 12:57 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9363
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 29 of 70 (692824)
03-07-2013 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by KevinAthans
03-07-2013 4:21 PM


Welcome to a debate forum
Whining will not endear you to anyone here.
If you cannot defend what you post, don't post it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 4:21 PM KevinAthans has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 70 (692838)
03-07-2013 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by KevinAthans
03-07-2013 11:22 AM


Hello, Kevin. It's good to have you here.
It will be interesting to see what your report turns up.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by KevinAthans, posted 03-07-2013 11:22 AM KevinAthans has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024