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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Well I have no idea about burglary stats, never having looked for them before, but I see that in the USA in 2009, there were an estimated 2,199,125 burglaries according to the FBI You seem to be engaged in a massive exercise in point-missing. You do understand that we're comparing the rate at which homes are burglarized while the occupants are present? I mean, I've been adamantly clear about that throughout, but you insist on lumping burglaries while the occupants are away with burglaries where the occupants are present, even though the occupants of a home are in no danger at all when the burglary happens while they're gone, while the occupants are in incredible danger when the burglary happens while they're present. Like I've said, this is part of the insane "new normal" of the UK; nobody thinks it matters if burglars invade your home with you inside. It's just a theft! They'll soon be on their way, nothing to worry about, here, let me help you carry off my TV and would you like the remote to go with it, as well? Absolutely insane.
So where do your numbers come from? Go back and look. I've presented sources for my stats, already. You can't just ignore what I've presented and then use your ignorance as a basis to say that I didn't.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Yes, you are correct he cannot calculate a percentage. However, I think that finding 138 guns for sale in working condition by checking only two sites does kind of imply that guns are made to be pretty durable. It is by no means conclusive evidence but it could show us that at least 138 guns could be sitting around from our current manufacture in 238 years, and that is only based on two websites. And are those originals in firing condition? Or are they replicas?The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
What? What what? I never claimed that I knew what percentage of Revolutionary arms survive to this day. Where on Earth would I have claimed I knew something unknowable?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Tempe 12ft Chicken,
Just a point of clarification:
Except that is not the case, since many gun enthusiasts know how to reload their own shell casings. In fact, there is even a wikihow page explaining exactly the steps to do so. All an individual would have to have to replenish ammunition is a small bag of shell casings. The rest can be put together pretty simply. The shell casing is not ammunition, what is put inside it is. That is what would be banned. Empty shells don't shoot anything. Enjoy.by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
What what? I never claimed that I knew what percentage of Revolutionary arms survive to this day. Where on Earth would I have claimed I knew something unknowable? You claimed that firearms are extremely durable, and used Revolutionary firearms as an example to prove your point. But your example was flawed. You do not know how durable Revolutionary firearms were. You brought it up. You used the example. The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds ofvariously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined:
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Crashfrog writes:
Well, we know from Australia that society was improved by banning guns and people didn't try harder to get guns. But was society improved as a result? Did people use less drugs, or did they try harder to get drugs? Your analogy is proved wrong by reality."There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Tempe 12ft Chicken Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined: |
These are originals, not replicas.
Some of the conditions of the weapons are not great, but they claim to be working...I think the oldest one that I saw is actually from between 1795 and 1810, so I guess it would be in only 202 years at the high end. Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : fixed wordingThe theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Your graph contained figures from both Gallop and GSS, so averaging and approximating, your graph says that there has been roughly a 20% decline in gun ownership over the past 40 years or so. I would expect this to correlate with a roughly 20% decline in total gun deaths over the same period. Anyone have any figures?
Gun massacres won't follow this trend because they'll tend to follow gun ownership rates for weapons typically used in mass murders, like assault rifles. Ownership rates for guns like these have been on the increase, haven't they? Anyway, here's an interesting article: Did the federal ban on assault weapons matter?. It included this graph showing the decline in mass murders during the assault weapon ban, the peak in 1999 included Columbine:
--Percy
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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Well, we know from Australia that society was improved by banning guns and people didn't try harder to get guns. But it wasn't. Conditions in Australia improved at exactly the same rate they were already improving. Homicides increased in the years that followed the gun ban. Crime rates in Australia continue to be almost twice as high as they are in the US. I mean, sure, Australia ended mass shooting incidents (so far.) But those are rare anyway. It's like being concerned about the rate of people struck by meteors - being so concerned about it, in fact, that the diversion of resources allows an additional 10,000 people to die from drunk driving. Good job on the meteors, I guess, but how on Earth was that worth it?
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Tempe 12ft Chicken Member (Idle past 366 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined: |
RAZD writes: The shell casing is not ammunition, what is put inside it is. That is what would be banned. Empty shells don't shoot anything. Yes, we already had this clarified by Theodoric. However, it would be pretty simple to smuggle powder over from other countries (Mexico comes to mind, since I live in Arizona), just the lead portion can be simply manufactured in the home or smuggled, primers can be smuggled relatively easily as well, and the casings can be saved or found (Go to the woods, and you can find 1000 casings on the ground in under two hours, they are literally everywhere).The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You claimed that firearms are extremely durable, and used Revolutionary firearms as an example to prove your point. And firearms are extremely durable. They're an extremely durable class of goods. For instance, firearms from the Revolutionary war can still be fired.
You do not know how durable Revolutionary firearms were. I've not made any claims whatsoever about the durability of Revolutionary firearms. None at all.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1436 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Hi Kofh2u
Go figure. Ever heard of the Coincidental Correlation (post hoc ergo propter hoc) logical fallacy?
quote: The crime rate in America is almost nil except for inner city America where the murders take place and the WELFARE SYSTEM incubates fatherless kids whio never recognize authority figures thereafter. What makes "inner city America" different from other parts of the city? Employment? Salaries? Would not poverty wages or less logically cause both and increase in welfare and crime? Further discussion should be a new topic. This is not related to gun control. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : off topic by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1498 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Ever heard of the Coincidental Correlation (post hoc ergo propter hoc) logical fallacy? You mean like "we banned guns, and then murders were lower after that"?
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined:
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Crashfrog writes:
But, as usual, you avoid the actual point of this thread: gun deaths were greatly reduced. But it wasn't. Conditions in Australia improved at exactly the same rate they were already improving. Homicides increased in the years that followed the gun ban. Crime rates in Australia continue to be almost twice as high as they are in the US.Gun deaths. Not car deaths. Not drug deaths. Not crime rates. Not homicides. GUN deaths (or firearm homicides and firearm suicides if that helps you). http://www.washingtonpost.com/...n-control-work-in-australia
quote: quote:People that know what they are talking about disagree with you. "There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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Panda Member (Idle past 3743 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined:
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Crashfrog writes:
I don't recognize this text from anyone else's post, but you attribute it to someone. Can you show me where they made this remark? You mean like "we banned guns, and then murders were lower after that"?"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane
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