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Author Topic:   Is God good?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 471 of 722 (684014)
12-14-2012 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by jaywill
12-14-2012 11:34 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Nothing was "ludicrously wrong" unless you're hunting for cheap points, I think.
Your statement that "Darwin's ideas about favored races played a major part in Hitler's rational for wanting to do his "Final Solution"" was in fact ludicrously wrong.
If you are done bearing false witness then perhaps we could return to the topic, since you'll find your nonsense about Hitler debunked on plenty of other threads.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by jaywill, posted 12-14-2012 11:34 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 483 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2012 1:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 485 of 722 (684121)
12-15-2012 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 483 by jaywill
12-15-2012 1:56 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
"Favored races" as I used was not restricted to human beings. The bulk of Darwin's attention may have been to animals. However, look at the title of his book in the original and stop dancing.
I know the title. I also know the content. Darwin does not mention human races anywhere in the whole course of the book. The word "races" in the title refers to subspecies of plants and animals, as you have already been informed. Pointing this out is not "dancing", it is stating the cold hard fact that you are ignoring because doing so allows you to talk fatuous and disingenuous nonsense.
How much "witness" has to be borne to see Hitler's comment about survival of favored races was related to Darwin's evolutionary ideas ?
The quotation from Hitler proves that he was a pig-ignorant bastard who knew as much about biology as an umbrella stand or a creationist.
Racism and then genocide was the logical outworking of Darwinian evolution in Hitler's view.
Funny, I can't find a single reference to Darwin in Mein Kampf. Plenty of references to God, though ... such as this:
Whoever would dare to raise a profane hand against that highest image of God among His creatures would sin against the bountiful Creator of this marvel and would collaborate in the expulsion from Paradise.
Hey, do you know the difference between the Origin of Species and the Book of Genesis? Here's a hint, only one of them involves man having a Creator, man being made in the image of God, and an expulsion from Paradise.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 483 by jaywill, posted 12-15-2012 1:56 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 486 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2012 8:31 AM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 490 by kofh2u, posted 12-16-2012 2:48 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 501 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2012 10:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 487 of 722 (684177)
12-16-2012 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 486 by jaywill
12-16-2012 8:31 AM


Re: Darwin's theory DID enfluence Nazis,
Nothing you said negates that Darwin's theory enfluenced Hitler's thinking.
No, but the fact that it didn't kinda does.
I can't find a single reference to Darwin anywhere in Mein Kampf. You, presumably, cannot find a single reference to Darwin anywhere in Hitler's writing or speeches, or you would have said so.
And I know about Darwin's theology backround and references to God. That's besides the point.
Then I don't see why you mention it. I certainly didn't.
That's besides the point. My point was Darwin's theory also inspired and enfluenced Adolf Hitler, the Nazis ...
And yet you can produce no evidence for this; and have in fact produced evidence against it.
Strong name calling only makes you look like an angry fool who can't take the obvious truth.
I don't think that "pig-ignorant bastard" is the worst thing that Hitler has been called; nor do I think that deprecating Hitler's intellect invalidates my argument or anyone else's. But we are obviously two very different people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 486 by jaywill, posted 12-16-2012 8:31 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 491 by foreveryoung, posted 12-16-2012 5:38 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 495 of 722 (684225)
12-16-2012 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 491 by foreveryoung
12-16-2012 5:38 PM


Re: Darwin's theory DID enfluence Nazis,
Did darwin's theories not affect anyone in germany at the time ? If they did affect people, why would hitler be immune to its effect?
Well, lots of people are "immune" to Darwinism. And it appears that Hitler was one of them because he kept on saying creationist things. Someone who tells you that man was made in the image of God and then expelled from Paradise doesn't sound all that Darwinian, does he? 'Cos of him getting his ideas about origins from the Book of Genesis.
As to why Hitler in particular was "immune", we can but speculate. Me, I think it's because he was an idiot. Though if I say that jaywill may tell me off for "strong name-calling" again, since apparently saying bad things about Hitler weakens my argument in some way he can't quite put his finger on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 491 by foreveryoung, posted 12-16-2012 5:38 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 496 by foreveryoung, posted 12-16-2012 7:31 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 498 by kofh2u, posted 12-16-2012 9:41 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 508 of 722 (684436)
12-17-2012 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 501 by jaywill
12-17-2012 10:00 AM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
The subtile mentions human races.
You are a liar. And I know that you are lying, so why bother?
I have not the patience to go through the rest of your crap in detail, I will merely remind you that shit you like to imagine in your head does not constitute evidence. It constitutes imaginary shit. If you can't even try to debate honestly ... then you might just be a creationist.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 501 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2012 10:00 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 510 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2012 3:37 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 511 of 722 (684455)
12-17-2012 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 510 by jaywill
12-17-2012 3:37 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
What is the lie ?
The thing I quoted. How stupid are you?
Racists have loved Darwin for years. Hitler included.
We're still waiting for evidence for this.
Please let me inform you again that shit you make up in your head is not evidence.
Why? Because of the Darwin evolutionary theory running strong in Europe ...
Evidence?
Please let me inform you again that shit you make up in your head is not evidence.
Hitler's fascist racism was fueled by your beloved Charles Darwin's ideas.
Evidence?
Please let me inform you again that shit you make up in your head is not evidence.
You're lying to yourself to deny the enfluence of Evolution Theory on Nazi Germany.
But I am not telling lies. You are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 510 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2012 3:37 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 520 of 722 (684517)
12-17-2012 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 517 by jaywill
12-17-2012 5:08 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
If you skeptics are willing to say that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, The New Testament had absolutely NO CONCEIVABLE enfluence on the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades, then maybe I'll cheerfully go along with a friendly gesture and say tongue in cheek "Well Charles Darwin's Evolution Theory had no imaginable, no possible, no conceivable enfluence Nazi Eugenics, Nazi killing of mentally retarded, and Hitler's dehumanization of the Jews.
No-one said that it wasn't conceivable, just that apparently it didn't happen. Whereas the evidence does show that the Inquisition and the Crusades were religiously motivated. The Crusaders rode into battle shouting "Deus vult!" --- God wills it. Whereas despite repeated challenges, you haven't found a single place where Hitler referenced Darwin. I can conceive of him doing so, I just haven't seen any evidence that he actually did. Because the things that I can imagine are not evidence any more than the things that you can imagine are evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 517 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2012 5:08 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 523 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2012 7:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 524 of 722 (684544)
12-17-2012 8:00 PM
Reply to: Message 523 by jaywill
12-17-2012 7:47 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
It is not necessary that I find mention of the man's NAME ... "Charles Darwin" per se.
But it is surely interesting that you can't. After all, when we look at the writings of men who really were influenced by Darwin, for example Richard Dawkins or Ernst Meyr, we find that they mention Darwin quite a lot.
The location of ideas so strickingly similar to Darwin's ideas is good enough for many historians.
But they aren't strikingly or even strickingly similar, as you would know if you were familiar with the theory of evolution. That was the very first thing that was pointed out to you, hence the post title we're still using.
Compare to The Ascent of Man by Darwin ...
... which does not, in fact, exist ...
... and the subtitle to Darwin's book on Origin of Species.
Are you still lying about that? Why?
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 523 by jaywill, posted 12-17-2012 7:47 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 528 by foreveryoung, posted 12-17-2012 8:34 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 526 of 722 (684551)
12-17-2012 8:25 PM


The Nazis' (Book) Burning Zeal For Darwinism
So, I have at last found a Nazi reference to Darwinism. It's in their guidelines for banning books.
Along with "Die Literatur des Marxismus, Kommunismus, Bolschewismus" ("the literature of Marxism, Communism, Bolshevism") and "Die liberalistisch-demokratische Tendenz- und Gesinnungsliteratur" ("Literature with liberal-democratic tendencies and attitudes") they also wished to suppress writings "deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufklrung eines primitiven Darwinismus [...] ist" ("which contain the pseudoscientific exposition of primitive Darwinism").
They also condemned "Alle Schriften, welche die christliche Religion und ihre Einrichtungen, den Gottesglauben [...] verhhnen, verumglimpfen oder verchtlich machen" ("All works which mock, libel, or make contemptible the Christian religion and its institutions, belief in God ...")
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 543 by kofh2u, posted 12-18-2012 10:53 AM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 544 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 11:30 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 532 of 722 (684563)
12-17-2012 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 528 by foreveryoung
12-17-2012 8:34 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Do you deny that the person you are today is largely a result of what your parents told you, what your teachers told you, what you read in books, what your friends told you, movies that you watched and got something from, TV that you watched as a kid and got something from?
I can tell you for certain, that I am a product of all of the above plus my own internal sorting of all that information and what meaning I ascribed to it all.
I never even contemplated denying it, especially with the thoughtful caveat of your second paragraph. Certainly I am the product of my nature filtering my nurture, what else?
But what does this have to do with anything?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by foreveryoung, posted 12-17-2012 8:34 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 534 by foreveryoung, posted 12-17-2012 9:04 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 536 of 722 (684568)
12-17-2012 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 534 by foreveryoung
12-17-2012 9:04 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
Your nature is the product of thousands of internal decisions you made in your head over all the years of growing up.
That's not what "nature" usually means when discussing the nature-nurture distinction. If would refer to the propensities that I was born with. (And there must be some --- as a reductio ad absurdum, if you were to expose a tortoise to exactly the same stimuli as I experienced growing up, it wouldn't end up thinking exactly the same things.)
But I am all agog to find out what, if anything, this is relevant to.

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 Message 534 by foreveryoung, posted 12-17-2012 9:04 PM foreveryoung has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 547 of 722 (684739)
12-18-2012 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 544 by jaywill
12-18-2012 11:30 AM


Re: The Nazis' (Book) Burning Zeal For Darwinism
"It is difficult to say for sure" what was forbidden and burned.
That because there were so many lists. But we know that all the things on the lists we have were forbidden, because there they are on the lists of forbidden things.
Sheesh, you guys. Is there anything so simple that you can't misunderstand it?
I can see the difficulty because Darwin's name is NOT mentioned in the list of authors to be cleansed from Public Libraries.
If Darwin's writings, the first exposition of Darwinism, weren't "primitive Darwinism", it would be hard to say what is.
Some information has been gathered about Hitler's collection of books he read which included Christian oriented books ...
No biology textbooks? That would explain why he was consistently wrong about biology.
I only submit to you that if a man could be totally deluded in engineering the Holocaust under the belief that he is also defending the Christian church, the same madman could be so deluded having followers claim they reject "primitive Darwin" while absolutely adhereing militaristically to Darwin's racists ideas.
I concede the possibility of a hypothetical madman so doing --- however since Hitler did not adhere to Darwin's ideas, but rather than his own, since he explicitly rejected many points of Darwinism, since there is nothing in Darwin remotely hinting at the inferiority of the Jews or the desirability of a Holocaust, since Hitler repeatedly enunciated creationist doctrine, since he seemingly never ever referred to Darwin or Darwinism ever as a warrant for his ideas, since we have no evidence that he ever read a word of Darwin, since we have no evidence that this high-school dropout knew more about biology than the average creationist, historians need not consider this whimsical fantasy, but will look at the facts instead.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 544 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 11:30 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 548 of 722 (684764)
12-18-2012 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by jaywill
12-18-2012 12:46 PM


Re: But that is NOT Charles Darwin's Theory of Evolution
To that I replied he was more fulfilling his duty to Darwin's theory of Evolution.
So if only you had been truthful we might have been spared this digression. Perhaps this will teach you to be more honest in the future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 12:46 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 549 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 3:56 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 550 of 722 (684780)
12-18-2012 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 545 by jaywill
12-18-2012 12:46 PM


Slavery
Also of note is that modern slave trade went exactly against Paul's teaching (based on OT) that KIDNAPPING was a sin ...
When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
And when the Lord thy God hath delivered [a city] into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee (Deuteronomy 20:13-14)
You have to admit that Abolition of Slavery was caused by the Bible
If, then, the Almighty had undertaken to enlighten the human race by degrees, with respect to the great sin of slavery, is it not wonderful that, in the very last revelation of his will, he has uttered not a single syllable in disapprobation thereof? Is it not wonderful, that he should have completed the revelation of his will, that he should have set his seal to the last word he will ever say to man respecting his duties, and yet not one word about the great obligation of the master to emancipate his slaves, nor about the ''appalling sin'' of slavery? Such silence must, indeed, appear exceedingly peculiar and anomalous to the abolitionist. It would have been otherwise had he written the New Testament. He would, no doubt, have inserted at least one little precept against the sin of slavery. - Arthur Taylor Bledsoe
My correspondent thinks with Mr. Jefferson, that Jehovah has no attributes that will harmonize with slavery; and that all men are born free and equal. Now, I say let him throw away his Bible as Mr. Jefferson did his and then they will be fit companions. - Rev. Thornton Stringfellow, D.D.
The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example. - Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral. - Rev. Alexander Campbell
The extracts from Holy Writ unequivocally assert the right of property in slaves. - Rev. E.D. Simms, professor, Randolph-Macon College
I draw my warrant from the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to hold the slave in bondage. - Rev. Thomas Witherspoon, Presbyterian, of Alabama
The Holy Scriptures [...] do unequivocally authorize the relation of master and slave. - South Carolina Methodist Conference, 1836
People who are bitter and hateful about slavery are obviously bitter and hateful against God and his word, because they reject what God says and embrace what mere humans say concerning slavery. - Senator Charles Davidson, 1996
We therefore hold that abolitionism, which deems slavery a sin and therefore considers every slave holder a criminal and strives for its eradication, is the result of unbelief in its development of nationalism, deistic philanthropy, pantheism, materialism, and atheism.' [...] The more their non-religiosity increases and reaches the pinnacles of theoretical atheism and indifferentism, the more fanatically they fight for the principle of slave emancipation. - Pastor CFW Walther, President of the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church
Last of all, in this great struggle, we defend the cause of God and Religion. The Abolition spirit is undeniably atheistic. [...] This spirit of atheism, which knows no God who tolerates evil, no Bible which sanctions law, and no conscience that can be bound by oaths and covenants, has selected us for its victims, and slavery for its issue. - the Reverend Benjamin Morgan Palmer
In the light of God's truth the notion of created equality and unalienable right is falsehood and infidelity [...] The time has come when civil liberty, as revealed in the Bible and in Providence, must be re-examined, understood, and defended against infidel theories of human rights. - the Reverend F A Ross, Slavery Ordained Of God
[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God [...] it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation ... - Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America.
The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined. - United States Senator James Henry Hammond.
Darwin's racists ideas.
Those who look tenderly at the slave-owner, and with a cold heart at the slave, never seem to put themselves into the position of the latter;what a cheerless prospect, with not even a hope of change! picture to yourself the chance, ever hanging over you, of your wife and your little childrenthose objects which nature urges even the slave to call his ownbeing torn from you and sold like beasts to the first bidder! And these deeds are done and palliated by men, who profess to love their neighbours as themselves, who believe in God, and pray that his Will be done on earth! (Darwin, Voyage of the Beagle)
But it is utterly false (as Cap Paget satisfactorily proved) that any, even the very best treated, do not wish to return to their countries. "If I could but see my father & my two sisters once again, I should be happy. I never can forget them." Such was the expression of one of these people, who are ranked by the polished savages in England as hardly their brethren, even in Gods eyes. From instances I have seen of people so blindly & obstinately prejudiced, who in other points I would credit, on this one I shall never again scruple utterly to disbelieve: As far as my testimony goes, every individuall who has the glory of having exerted himself on the subject of slavery, may rely on it his labours are exerted against miseries perhaps even greater than he imagines." (Darwin, Diary)
The state of the enormous slave population must interest everyone who enters the Brazils. Passing along the streets it is curious to observe the numbers of tribes which may be known by the different ornaments cut in the skin & the various expressions. From this results the safety of the country. The slaves must communicate amongst themselves in Portugeese & are not in consequence united. I cannot help believing they will ultimately be the rulers. I judge of it from their numbers, from their fine athletic figures, (especially contrasted with the Brazilians) proving they are in a congenial climate, & from clearly seeing their intellects have been much underrated. they are the efficient workmen in all the necessary trades. If the free blacks increase in numbers (as they must) & become discontented at not being equal to white men, the epoch of the general liberation would not be far distant. [...] I hope the day will come when they will assert their own rights & forget to avenge these wrongs. (Darwin, Diary)
We had several quarrels, for when out of temper he [Captain Fitzroy] was utterly unreasonable. For instance, early in the voyage at Bahia in Brazil he defended and praised the slavery which I abominated, and told me that he had just visited a great slave owner, who had called up many of his slaves and asked them whether they were happy, and whether they wished to be free, and all answered no. I then asked him perhaps with a sneer, whether he thought that the answer of slaves in the presence of their master was worth anything. (Darwin, Autobiography)
I have watched how steadily the general feeling, as shown at elections, has been rising against Slavery.What a proud thing for England, if she is the first Europan Nation which utterly abolishes it. I was told before leaving England, that after living in Slave countries, all my opinions would be altered; the only alteration I am aware of is forming a much higher estimate of the Negro character. It is impossible to see a Negro, and not feel kindly towards him. (Darwin, Voyage of the Beagle)
Has not the white man, who has debased his nature by making slave of his fellow Black, often wished to consider him as other animal. it is the way of mankind & I believe those who soar above such prejudices yet have justly exalted nature of man. (Darwin, Notebooks on the transmutation of species)
If to what Nature has granted the Brazils, man added his just & proper efforts, of what a country might the inhabitants boast. But where the greater parts are in a state of slavery, & where this system is maintained by an entire stop to education, the mainspring of human actions, what can be expected; but that the whole would be polluted by its part. (Darwin, Diary)
The land of the Brazilians [...] a land also of slavery, and therefore of moral debasement. (Darwin, Voyage of the Beagle)
On the 19th of August we finally left the shores of Brazil. I thank God, I shall never again visit a slave-country. (Darwin, Voyages of the Beagle)
Some few, and I am one of them, even wish to God, though at the loss of millions of lives, that the North would proclaim a crusade against slavery. In the long-run, a million horrid deaths would be amply repaid in the cause of humanity. What wonderful times we live in! Massachusetts seems to show noble enthusiasm. Great God! how I should like to see the greatest curse on earthslaveryabolished! (Darwin, Letter to Asa Gray, 1861)
If abolition does follow with your victory, the whole world will look brighter in my eyes. (Darwin, Letter to Asa Gray, 1861)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 545 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 12:46 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 314 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 553 of 722 (684788)
12-18-2012 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 552 by jaywill
12-18-2012 4:37 PM


And I suggest that you not attempt to debate by link, as this is contrary to the rules of the forum. If you have any facts to back up your fantasies, please present them here. If, as I suspect, you do not, then this would be a great time to stop retailing your unsubstantiated nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 552 by jaywill, posted 12-18-2012 4:37 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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