Is God good?

Faith, Revelation says that the Woman seated upon the beast is the "Mother of harlots" .Is she a harlot? Yes. But she is also the mother of harlots. This should mean that she has spawned of many others like herself.Historically this can be seen in that the denominations all came out of the RCC, carrying to one more or less degree many of her errors. "And on her forehead there was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (Rev. 17:5) The many daughters came out from the mother.
The many denominations came out of the RCC.Now I will try to tie this far fetched comments to the topic. We're suppose to be talking about whether God is good or not. Of course I believe God is good.It is a statement of man's depravity in his fall into sin that man will take what is good to dignify his basest motives. Of course when man is really intent on doing wickedly he will put the best face on it as a facade. To dignify his worst behavior he will envoke what is most high, most noble, most holy.This is probably why, in spite of the glorious aspect of the history of the Christian church, there is also that other most ignoble side. " ... THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH".The most wonderful things on earth have been under the Christian banner. Yet at the same time some of the most abominable things have also been under the Christian banner.Hence we have Christ's parable of the woman who leavened the meal until the whole things became leaven. "Another parable He spoke to them: The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened." (Matt. 13:33) Books like "God is Not Great - How Religion Poisons Everything" by Chris Hitchens are mostly fueled by this negative history that Jesus prophesied and foretold. That is the corruption of the Gospel of the kingdom by the fermenting of many evil things mixed with it.Of course the gates of Hades cannot prevail against the church which Christ builds. And Revelation reveals the church's triumph in glory - the Bride and Wife of the Lamb in chapter 19 and the New Jerusalem in chapters 21,22. She overcomes to match Christ and marry Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Nothing was "ludicrously wrong" unless you're hunting for cheap points, I think.So we write something when [with] a little more time [it] might have been written somewhat more clearly.If you'll notice, my posts are usually edited numerous times to try to get it right. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I am way off topic. I think if we open up another thread perhaps on the proper Christian unity or some such heading, we can get into some fellowship about this.Well it is more like this - We can leave Babylon but Babylon will not so easily leave us. The high symbolism in Revelation concerns somethings which are in man's blood (so to speak).You know the significance of the Old Testament Babylon was that it was a place where God's people were CAPTURED AWAY from the promised land. They were exiled. Daniel was there too. Daniel was very spiritual you know. In fact some of the highest revelation in the whole Bible was written by the prophet Daniel - WHILE HE WAS IN BABYLON.So the matter is not to simple. "Come out of her MY PEOPLE" (Rev. 18:4 my emphasis) suggests the God realizes the HIS people, His saints, to a large degree have been caught, captured, exiled into such a spiritual Babylon.Don't you think so? "And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues; For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses." (18:4,5) So while saints are in the process of "coming out" of Babylon, there is also the need for Babylon to come out of them, out of their system.Mind you, that every single one of these saints [genuinely regenerated] eventually is a part of the New Jerusalem of chapter 21 and 22. So it is not so simple a matter that Babylon is "them over there."We believers need this leaven of degraded Christianity eliminated out of us. We need to overcome this degradation.The denominations cannot be used by God to turn the age and bring in the kingdom age. God must recover with a remnant the proper oneness. And He is doing that today. We came out. But the coming out was a start in the Reformation. It was not completed in the Reformation. The recovery is still going on.This is why in Revelation Jesus tells the church in Sardis that her works are not completed before His God. She has broken free from the degradation of the previous situation - Thyatire. But she has not COMPLETED the recovery - " ... for I have found none of your works completed before My God." (Rev. 3:2) Protestant Sardis has begun a recovery from Catholic Thyatira. But it is an incomplete recovery. She has a problem with spiritual death - " ... you hae a name that you are living, and yet you are dead." (v.1) The reputation is good. But the actual state Christ says does not match the good reputation - "These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know your works, that you have a name that you are living, and yet you are dead.

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Become watchful and establish the things which remain, which were about to die; for I have found none of your works completed before My God." (vs.1b,2) This is an improvement over Catholic Thyatira. This is the Reformation. But as you can see the reputation does not match the reality. And the recovery of the Reformation is incomplete.In Philidelphia the recovery advances further. And this is the move of the Lord in the Brethren which in turn came forth from the Reformation denominations.This is a short note on matters which require much explanation. But notice that in every one of the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 there is a promise of reward to those who overcome the surrounding degradation.This proves that God reserves some who overcome - overcomers, in all kinds of degraded Christianity throughout the centries. A remnant will overcome in these last days also.Here overcoming is not in reference to salvation. This overcoming described in the seven letters in Revelation 2 and 3 is not in regards to eternal redemption. It is in regards to establishing the kingdom. Yes it does take spiritual discernment. Notice however that divisions and sects are discribed by Paul as the works of the flesh in Galatians 5. So when we become discerning with the Scripture to help, we realize that the denominations are the works of the flesh: "And the works of the flesh are manifest, which are such things as -

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fornication,
uncleaness,
lasciviousness,
idolatry,
sorcery,
enmities,
strife,
jealousy,
outbursts of anger,
FACTIONS,
DIVISIONS,
SECTS,
envyings,
bouts of drunkeness,
carousings,

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and things like these, of which I tell you beforehand, even as I have said before, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21 My emphasis) " Factions, divisions, sects" are ways in which man divides up the one church that Christ established. And these are denominations too. They cannot be only things based upon wrong teachings. They can be things based on right doctrines but administered not in spiritual life but in the zeal of the fallen nature.At the least divisions can be indications of being tossed about as children lacking maturity -

" ... That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching in the sleight of men, in craftiness with a view to a system of error, But holding to truth in love, we may GROW UP into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ ..." (Eph. 4:14,15) So the denominations can carry some errors along with their withdrawal from the Mother. They are then daughters of the mother. They also can be divisive because of turfs of jealousy. They can be divisive based not only on heretical teachings but even right doctrines.Baptist Church, Methodist Church, Presbyterian Church, Pentacostal Church ... etc.These can be divisions of the Body of Christ which are the works of the flesh. They can be indications of children tossed as on litte boats on a windy sea - "That we may be no longer little children tossed by waves abd carried about by every wind of teaching ..." .Holding the head is an organic matter of life. The Head is Christ the living Person. The Head is available and alive. It is a life matter which unites the believers.Right doctrines are important. But even right docrtines can be used divisively when we are not holding fast the living Head - "But holding to truth in love, we may grow up into Him in all things, who is the Head, Christ,

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Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit together through every joint of the rich supply and through the operations in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body unto the building up of itself in love." (Col. 4:14-16) The apostles established churches according to localities - one city one church. So the recovery of the local ground is a further recovery from the incomplete Protestant Reformation.And now I am way off the original topic. But on another thread we can develop this more.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

That is true. I believe the books of Exodus and Joshua are actual history.
But what it really at issue in this topic is not the historicity of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Joshua, etc. but is God good who is spoken about in these books.I will continue to sound just like a believer. It is a given with me, and as the OP stated, that the Bible is true.If it is not true, it puzzles me why you and others would spend so much time trying to argue against it. Where is the book "Unicorns are Not Great" ? Wheres the best seller "The Leprachuan Delusion"?
Where's the book "How UFO Sightings Poison Everything"?I think you argue here so strenously because there is a threat of the TRUTH of the Bible, I think. Since you mention the Flood I will speak here about the flood.Here is perhaps the crux of the argument. Both God and Hitler had people killed. Now let's be fair about it.1.) In the Flood I do not KNOW for certain children died. I can assume some did. But I really don't know that kids drowned.2.) There is the difference in the purpose of the killing. These people in the flood were not killed because they were all of some ethinic racial group. It was not because they were all Armenians, or all Jews, or all Gypsies. The thing binding them together in one group was not anything about race or ethnicity.Granted, still they were drowned by God's flood. It was the wickedness of their lives which He would no longer tolerate. Race and ethincity was not a factor. With Hitler, if he didn't like your ethinicity you were subject to extermination.With the flood - And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth ...". It is not that God saw that there were a lot of Armenians around and He hated Armenians. It was the wickedness of MAN (any kind of human) which was the cause of the judgment.(We're speaking to the Flood right now)3.) You don't take seriously how BAD this society had fallen. You simply wink at this or just don't see any big deal in it. " ... and every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. (v.5) You shrug? "So?" "And God said to Noah, the END of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them ..." (v. 13) You shrug? "So? God should just let them continue on forever in violence. That would be the good thing to do. Just be the ultimate Permissivist ad infinitum."No. God makes an example of this society fallen to rock bottom immorality. It is not the last time He does so. You see within most of us, we just don't think things can actually get that bad.God says "the END of all flesh has come before Me." This is the END. This is as terrible as it can get. It would be unrighteous of Him not to intervene.Then His govenrment would not be taken seriously. Then His authority would not be taken seriously. But we HAVE to take His holiness seriously, His righteousnesss seriously, His judgement seriously because to save the world Christ is to come and be judged for all men at Calvary.I have to repeat again that the serious hatred of God for sin and unrightousness had to be established for us to see what it means for Christ to die on His cross for the sins of us all.If you say "Big deal" at the earth reaching rock bottom sinfulness you will probably say "Big deal" that Christ died for you that you might be eternally redeemed, reconciled to God.Anyway, Noah was preparing the ark for about 200 years. In that time he was a preacher of righteousness.Also Enoch had been raptured out of the earth for walking with God. The poeple of that day had ample warning that to please God and be taken was preferable to sinning and remaining. Judgment was coming.How long did they know judgment was coming? At least for the 200 years Noah was building an ark and preaching about a coming FLOOD.Probably, since Enoch called his son Methusaleh, which means something like "When he dies it will come" and this man died after 969 years of life, this could have been a warning.The raptured man Enoch says, judgment will come when my son Methusaleh dies. Methusaleh lives LONGER than any other recorded man. This implies also that God held off the judgement for as long as He possibly could. So I submit that they had about a millennia of forewarning that a divine judgment was going to come. That is something they had never seen before. That was the rain for 40 days and the fountains of the deep being broken up to cause a huge flood.So God judges, true. But God gives about 1,000 years of warning that they may repent. I don't KNOW that children died. Floods of course do take children. So, assume some children died.God knows them. He knows if they were innocent or not. His record is infallible.God has places that we do not know about. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8) Samuel was brought up from his "rest" in the realm of Hades (1 Sam. 28:8,11). And the Bible says "Sheol [covered to men's eyes] is naked before Him" (Job 26:6; Proverbs 15:11) I believe that though some people were temporaly judged with physical death that was not the end of their dealings with God in the eternal scheme. They were made examples though.Some judged and made absent from the body may have been made relatively more present before the Lord in a realm of the soul of which we have no experience.Many, many verses reveal that God has places for the departed souls of those whose loose physical life. What God can do Hitler cannot. Hitler has not either the authority or the power to do as God does.In ending human life Hitler and God have the same ability. In preserving the human departed soul, resurrecting the body at the end of time, recalling every minute detail of one's life, accounting for every minute contributing factor, and many things the moral Adolf Hitler and the Almighty God are not equal.How do I know that the example of the temporal judging of some Old Testament people was not the end of their story in the eternal scheme of things? I know because Jesus in a number of places implies it strongly.
Ie. "Truly I say to you, It will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." (Matthew. 10:15)

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"But I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you." (Matt. 11:24) I think some of the people who died in the flood perhaps crying out to God outside of the closed ark, will wonder why those of latter ages didn't receive the gracious gift of salvation in Christ upon believing.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

"Favored races" as I used was not restricted to human beings. The bulk of Darwin's attention may have been to animals. However, look at the title of his book in the original and stop dancing.No apologies. No retraction. And certainly no agreement with your spin that I am bearing false witness.How much "witness" has to be borne to see Hitler's comment about survival of favored races was related to Darwin's evolutionary ideas ?

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if nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such cases ALL HER EFFORTS, THROUGHOUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS, TO ESTABLISH AN EVOLUTIONARY HIGHER STAGE OF BEING, MAY THUS BE RENDERED FUTILE." ( - Adolf Hitler, My Emphasis )

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Racism and then genocide was the logical outworking of Darwinian evolution in Hitler's view.Darwin's theory of evolution enfluenced Hitler's thinking about the superiority of the Aryian race. Don't try to morph my comment to say Darwin was a Nazi. That is not what I said. What I wrote I stand by. And I said that I think Hitler's sense of duty was more to Darwin's Evolutionary Theory. "From Darwin to Hitler - a Lecture" Dr. Richard Weikart (History Professor)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A
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Nothing you said negates that Darwin's theory enfluenced Hitler's thinking.And I know about Darwin's theology backround and references to God. That's besides the point. My point was Darwin's theory also inspired and enfluenced Adolf Hitler, the Nazis, and the Eugenics of the Nazis and other thinkers as well. And as much as you spin it the history stands. Strong name calling only makes you look like an angry fool who can't take the obvious truth. "From Darwin to Hitler - a Lecture" Dr. Richard Weikart (History Professor)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_5EwYpLD6A(Not all of Darwin's thoughts about Evolution theory are recorded in Origin. He penned his ideas elsewhere as in letters, and other books as Weikart explains)Ie The Descent of Man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUJpRSIUs1sEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

As for references for God in Nazi propoganga, I never said Darwinian Evolution was the only rationale these people grasped at. The subtile mentions human races. That is a very significant place. I don't for a minute assume that the title was designed to only refer to subspecies of animals and plants. Afterall the purpose of a title is to sell the book. And sensationalism had its place then as it has its place now.Besides, I never said that Origin of Species was the sole and only place Hitler and his henchmen gathered ideas to justify Nazism. It is disingenuous for you to to ignore the link. You are trying to make dung look like icecream.I would go as far to say the the perversion of Darwin's racism to be utlized for Nazism is less than the perversion of the Gospels to be utilized by the Inquisitors in the Spanish Inquisition.Ie. I think you had to do more twisting of Christ's teaching to justify the Inquisition then you have to twist Darwin's racism to arrive at Holocaust justification.I would not try to deny that statements in the New Testament were used to justify the Inquisition. I don't know why you bristle so at the obvious fact that Darwin's ideas were utilized by Hitler.I think you should just be wiling to admit it. You could always say that such utilization of Darwin's ideas [do not] prove the untruth of Evolution.I would admit that the Inquisitors grasped the statement of Jesus to "go ... compel them" to carry out horrors in the name of Christ. I don't like it. But I won't deny it. I don't think you should try to completely separate Hitler's Master Race idealism for the Aryian people from Darwin's ideasYour bristling at the suggestion that Darwin's IDEAS, which also include the subtitle of Origin, is more like reacting to an offense against your religion.

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"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the athropomorphous apes will not doubt be exterminated."

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Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 1871, pg. 119

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I think Darwin is speaking of black Africans there. Hitler's disdain for the successful atheletic feats in the Berlin World Olympic of the black Jesse Owens has been recorded. Jesse Owens trophies went against Hitler's idealogy that white Aryans did everything better than everyone else, especially Africans.If I recall correctly, at one point Hitler turned his back to the triumphs of Jesse Owens, refusing to watch a black man out do someone of the master race. Don't insult my intelligence that Darwin's ideas had nothing to do with that.You skeptics too often want us Christians to take heat for religious sins. You can dish it out but you can't take it. How you bristle in denial at the history of Nazism's connection to Darwin is ironic. Maybe its because you've made Evolution your secular religion.(Thanks Panda - about the Preview) Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I believe that God's goodness necessitates His hatred of sins.
I don't believe that God is good yet indifferent to sins against His government.The argument here is the question "Is God Good?" I think related to the discussion is the belief that IF God is indeed the highest Good, than justice, and even eternal punishment are good.Why is this related ? Because time and again the skeptic in God's goodness will point to His acts of judment to demonstrate He is not good. But this assumes that a "good" God will never judge, will never condemn, will never hate sin and sins, will never punish unrighteousness.There reason there is eternal suffering of the lost is because there is eternal sinning among the lost. Often it is argued that man's past sins are not sufficient to deem him worthy of eternal punishment. But what if sinning is infinite ?If during this life of God's blessings the sinner speaks evil things about God, HOW MUCH MORE when he is removed from the realm of God's blessings ? Is God obligued to tolerate and endless flow of insults and blasphemies from the lips of the lost rebels ?Eternal punishment must be the just and good reaction to infinite rebellion. The door of mercy was shut by the unbeliever who put himself beyond redemptive remedy graciously offered by God. In His goodness, Christ's blood was enough to God's wrath against sin to be satisfied forever, if the sinner will only believe in Christ for Him to be his Substitute.It is not just man's past acts then that incur God's wrath. It is his continued state that he enters eternity in that will call for endless misery of just judgment.Someone can explain to me how a eternally good God would not and cannot also have hatred against evil and punish evil. How does that work? How is it that a Ultimately Good Governor doesn't care about transgression against good so as not to display anger against the unrepentant and willingly unredeemable sinner ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Incorrect, that no evidence was given. I spoke about evidence in the case of Noah's flood, the case of the Amalekites and some other Canaanites.Without checking I don't recall what specific three cases you mean. But I gave evidence in some of the most significant OT instances.
You don't like the evidence. I'm not waiting around for you to like the evidence.Among other harshly judged people were the Midianites. Oh, they were the people who sought to corrupt Israel through mass fornication with the Hebrew men. This consipiracey was invented by the prophet Balaam who, let's say, "went over to the dark side."He was a prophet of God who loved money more than truth. He advized the Medianites to seduce Israel away from God with the lure of mass fornication with their women. For this the Medianites were very harshly judged.Not all societies were so harshly judged. These few that I mention are examples of very harsh divine judgment. The rest of your post is disgusting. And it reveals argument by revulsion. No need to dignify low talk that junior high level naughty boys could scribble on the walls of the Boy's Room stalls.It doesn't belong to the Forum. And it cheapens it. I think you should be suspended. But a moderator I am not.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't want to read any more of what you write. I heard the filth to come from your mouth / your keyboard.We're through. You're on ignore - waste of time.

The question is about certain acts of judgment done by God in the Old Testament.Some are difficult to read. But I believe they must reveal rather than negate the goodness of God. Suppose it is we who are abnormal in our expectation that God should be ultimately permissive towards the worst transgressions of His law?It is a question, at least, the reader of the Bible should consider.Deuteronomy 32:4 - " A God of truth and without iniquity; just and right is He". The Egyptians had conspired to kill the boys of the Hebrews, every one. Moses escaped. The Egyptian name Moses means drawn out of the water. For his Jewish mother hid the child in the swampy water and he was raised by Pharoah's daughter.A life time latter God sends Moses to deliver the slave Hebrews. Ten miraculous plagues come upon Egypt growing worse and worse in intensity. The LAST of the ten involves God's retribution up the firstborn of all whose parents would not heed the Passover instructions. Scores of firstborn Egyptians DIED in the judgment.My persuasion is that Deuteronomy is right - God is without iniquity and just and right is He. But the settling of accounts is not easy for me to read or take.Sometimes judgement is not easy for us to read about. "The Lord is righteous is all His ways, and holy in all His works" Psalm CXLV. 17In Nehemiah 9:33 the prophet speaks on behalf of the disciplined people would were punished in the dispersion to Babylon - "Howbeit You are just in all that is brought upon us' for You have done right, but we have done wickedly." He is saying in essence "God did not do wrong to punish us. Rather we did wrong and deserved it."But there are indeed other places in the Bible where evil was spoken of God or His prophets. Christ as the Son of God was accused and persecuted by religious people for being evil.Concering His Father, Christ not once accuses Him of evil. He calls Him "Righteous Father". He says the world has not known Him - "Righteous Father, the world has not known You. But I have known You ..." (John 17:25) This implies that the world has not recognized how righteous God was and is. This would include the world not appreciating God' righteous nature in the Old Testament judgment acts.As God is righteous. He hates evil. As He is the ruler of all, He is the maker of laws. These laws have righteous penalties already affixed and published. If God is Just and True, He must execute those penalties.The center of the Bible might be considered the death of the Son of God upon His cross for man's redemption from the judgment of sin. There at the cross the love of God for man works. But the hatred of God for sin also works.There on the cross of Christ the love of God and the justice of God coordinate together. God shows His great love for man yet also upholds His holy and righteous indignation against sin.There on the cross also the love of God towards the man He has created CLASHED with the hated of man towards God his Creator. Divine love to man comes clashing head on into man's distrust for God.Some instances of God's fore witnessed attitude towards man's sinning are hard to take. I don't like some of them. I am hard pressed to explain some of them. But I believe that to judge God as evil for them is to judge partially.1.) All facts are not known by me as they were known to God.
2.) My judgment influenced by an inward bribe leaning towards my own race of man to a degree that is not just.The verdict on behalf of sinners against God is probably more vested in human sinner self interest than is just.This may be like felons pretending to condemn the laws against felony. I suspect that the tendency to sympathize more with pain and less with the need for judgment of sin, is fortified with self interest. I think my thinking to want to condemn God as evil is probably more ignorance than enlightenment.The sinner's tendency is to lightly esteem the seriousness of sinning. The Bible says our hearts are deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9) In this matter I have come to believe that Proverbs 28:26 is true - "He that trusts in his own heart is a fool." There are MANY even thousands of instances of God's patience and mercy, longsuffering and forgiveness in Scripture. There are also instances of judgment tempered with some degree of mercy and understanding.And there are those few instances of very harsh judgment. The eye shall not pity, God said. These are a minority of instances. But they are there.I don't think there is a person who ever lived save probably Jesus, who liked everything written in the Bible.

What is the lie ?Racists have loved Darwin for years. Hitler included. When my father fought in World War II he said that in Italy the women would pat the black soldiers on the butt trying to feel their TAILS.Why? Because of the Darwin evolutionary theory running strong in Europe in which some races were more human and others were closer to apes.You can spin until you're blue in the face. Hitler's fascist racism was fueled by your beloved Charles Darwin's ideas.You're lying to yourself to deny the enfluence of Evolution Theory on Nazi Germany.As for Hitler's references to God. Sure, he grasped at theology too (Christian and Norse). But who was really "GOD" to Hitler? The Fuerer himself was the highest and most supreme and he would answer to no one. When it comes down to it it was Adolf Hitler who was playing God who would answer to no one higher.Dr. Adequate, you're woefully Inadequate to look at these things realistically. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Ah. The calm voice of reason.Now, I linked to a video which had a title suggesting perhaps that racism was invented by Darwin. You may go argue your point with those who titled that video.My point was the Darwin quotations from The Descent of Man.. Once again. My point was not that Darwin was the first racists.If you skeptics are willing to say that the Gospel of Jesus Christ, The New Testament had absolutely NO CONCEIVABLE enfluence on the Spanish Inquisition or the Crusades, then maybe I'll cheerfully go along with a friendly gesture and say tongue in cheek "Well Charles Darwin's Evolution Theory had no imaginable, no possible, no conceivable enfluence Nazi Eugenics, Nazi killing of mentally retarded, and Hitler's dehumanization of the Jews.I doubt that you are going to make that concession. Selectively, yes.
If I can admit it for the Bible it is strange that you cannot for the Darwin to Hitler connection. You must now speak for yourself. If you were Christopher Hitchens you would say that religion poisons everything. You would squarely lay at the foot of the Bible the crimes, say of the KKK.So, I might respect that you are speaking for yourelf.
By the way, above I submitted that if Evolution is TRUE, it doesn't matter who it enfluenced to do bad stuff.So you're schooling me now on a point I already made. A point that I already made - IE. if something is true it doesn't matter if it fueled this or that person to utilize the concept for evil deeds.That would be something like a genetic fallacy, I think. Hitler's Nazism does not make Darwin's ideas written in The Descent of Man, false.I don't think I deal with this particular matter further. We agree to disagree. I'm sorry that you cannot re-write history as if Hitler's Germany was prior to Evolution theory of the 19th century. You mean powerful guys like Adolf ?
You mean people like Adolf Hitler who clung on to his kind of Social Darwinism ? Yea, that's right.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It is not necessary that I find mention of the man's NAME ... "Charles Darwin" per se. The location of ideas so strickingly similar to Darwin's ideas is good enough for many historians.

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If Nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.

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" if men should forget that wherever they have reached a superior level of existence, it was not the result of following the ideas of crazy visionaries but by acknowledging and rigorously observing the iron laws of Nature. "

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Compare to The Ascent of Man by Darwin and the subtitle to Darwin's book on Origin of Species.

In the article link we see Darwin menioned -

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6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (H�ckel).

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Interesting. Also interesting is the main caveat paragraph beneath the title of the article:

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What was forbidden? What was burned? It is difficult to say for sure, in part because there were so many agencies which got involved. According to Leonidas Hill, author of "The Nazi Attack on Un-German Literature, 1933-1945," by 1934, over forty agencies had lists ennumerating 4,100 publications to be banned. The following list is necessarily partial, but should represent the most influential literature blacklists from 1933 to 1935.

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"It is difficult to say for sure" what was forbidden and burned.I can see the difficulty because Darwin's name is NOT mentioned in the list of authors to be cleansed from Public Libraries.

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Anthologie j�ngster Lyrik
Anthologie j�ngster Prosa
Asch, Nathan
Asch, Schalom
Babel: Budjonnys Reiterarmee
Barbusse, Henri
Barthel, Max: Die M�hle zum toten Mann
Becher, Johannes
Beer-Hofmann, Richard
Birkenfeld, G�nther
Bley, Fritz: alles au�er: Tier- und Jagdgeschichten
Bobinskaja, Karbunauri
Bogdanow: Das erste M�del
Bonsels: alles au�er: Biene Maja, Himmelsvolk, Indienfahrt
Braune: M�dchen an der Orga Privat
Brecht, Bert
Breitbach: Rot gegen Rot
Brod, Max: alles au�er: Tycho Brahe
Br�ck, Anita: Schicksale hinter Schreibmaschinen
Carr, Robert
Doeblin, Alfred: alles au�er: Wallenstein
Dos Passos
Drei�ig neue deutsche Erz�hler
Drei�ig neue Erz�hler des neuen Ru�lands
Ebermayer: Die Nachin Warschau
Edschmid, Kasimir: alles au�er: Timur, Die 6 M�ndungen

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Difficult to say for sure what was really banned.
I also would like to know what distinguishes "primitive Darwin" from other than "primitive" Darwin.Of further interst is this 1938 guideline -

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c) All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk.

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Oh really??

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Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

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Adolf Hitler

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Mockery. What did the Apostle Paul say should be the attitude of the Gentile Christian towards the Jews ?1.) God has absolutely not cast away His people the Jews - Romans 11:1
2.) The temporary hardening of their hearts works for the Gentile to receive grace and mercy (Rom. 11:5,6).
3.) Their stumbling providencially aids the Gentiles to be saved (v.11,12)
4.) Their temporary casting aside is for the salvation of the world -(v.12)
5.) They are the natural branches as Gentiles are wild branches to the "tree" of salvation (v.17)
6.) Gentiles should not boast against the Jew (v.18)
7.) They are the root of the wellbeing of the world and bear the Gentiles and NOT the other way around (v.18)
8.) The Gentile should therefore not be "highminded" (v.19).
9.) God will graft them in again to their natural plant of salvation (v.23).
10.) And thus all Israel will be saved (v.26).
11.) The World "Deliverer" will come out of Zion (v.26).
- In other words the world's Savior will come out of Jewish Zion.
12.) Salvation is of the Jews - " ... my kinsmen according to the flesh, Who are Israelites, whose are the sonship and the glory and the cevenants and the giving of the law and the service; Whose are the fathers, and out of whom, as regards what is according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen." (Romans 9:3b-5) In the confusion of mass hysteria of the Third Reich we can see how reliable was their discernment of what constituted accurate non-mocking representation of the Christian faith.The extermination of 6 million Jews because this madman thought he was doing the will of God Almighty, defending himself against the Jew? And the Nazis were banning ---

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"All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution"

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No one can seriously tell me Hitler's own writings and speeches didn't "besmirch" the Christian religion unless his "Christian religion" calls for the expulsion of Romans (the basic book of Christian doctrine), chapters 9 - 11. These chapters underline the Christian churches attitude towards the Jews.So in the hysteria of Hitler's Germany public statements and actions were not always consistent to say the least. And I can see both the mockery of Nazi distancing themselves from "primitive Darwin" whatever that is, as opposed to just "Darwin", and the mockery of pretending to be defenders of the Christian Gospel.Some information has been gathered about Hitler's collection of books he read which included Christian oriented books

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Timothy W. Ryback, who examined Hitler's books, found more than 130 books devoted to spirituality and religion including the teachings of Jesus Christ. Some of the titles included, Sunday Meditations; On Prayer; A Primer for Religious Questions, Large and Small; Large Truths About Mankind, the World and God; a German translation of E. Stanley Jones's 1931 best seller, The Christ of the Mount; and a 500-page work on the life and teachings of Jesus, published in 1935 under the title The Son: The Evangelical Sources and Pronouncements of Jesus of Nazareth in Their Original Form and With the Jewish Influences. Ryback also found a leather-bound tome -- with WORTE CHRISTI, or "Words of Christ," embossed in gold on the cover -- According to Ryback, it "was well worn, the silky, supple leather peeling upward in gentle curls along the edges. Human hands had obviously spent a lot of time with this book.... I scanned the book for marginalia that might suggest a close study of the text. A white-silk bookmark, preserved in its original perfection between pages 22 and 23 (only the portion exposed to the air had deteriorated), lay across a description of the Last Supper as related by Saint John. A series of pages that followed contained only a single aphorism each: 'Believe in God' (page 31), 'Have no fear, just believe' (page 52), 'If you believe, anything is possible' (page 53), and so on, all the way to page 95, which offers the solemn wisdom 'Many are called but few are chosen.'"

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from http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitlerchristian.htm

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I only submit to you that if a man could be totally deluded in engineering the Holocaust under the belief that he is also defending the Christian church, the same madman could be so deluded having followers claim they reject "primitive Darwin" while absolutely adhereing militaristically to Darwin's racists ideas. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.