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Member (Idle past 4453 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Kent Hovind | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
Question:
When there is a disagreement between (or among) creationists, how do they resolve that difference? It appears to me that they don't. As there are an estimated 38,000 to 40,000 different Christian denominations it appears that rather than resolving differences through some empirical means, they simply split off into more and more denominations. Given that, how can you tell that Hovind is "more of a crackpot than most?" What standard can you use? It would seem to me, an outsider, that you have no empirical means nor agreed-upon methods to determine who is right and who is wrong. Perhaps this is another problem in debating creationists--they haven't worked out a uniform set of beliefs among themselves, and apparently have no method for doing so. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Chuck77 Inactive Member |
Coyote writes: It would seem to me, an outsider, that you have no empirical means nor agreed-upon methods to determine who is right and who is wrong You can't help yourself huh Coyote? You seem to know everything even as an "outsider"? Now your going to turn this WHOLE thread into the validity of Creation Science peer review process. Great, well, im not gonna fall into the trap of your arrogance and know it all BS attitude. Here's a freeking thought Coyote. READY Coyote? Here it is: READ THE LINKS I POSTED FOR BUTTERFLYTYRANT AND YOU'LL ACTUALLY SEE WHAT METHODS ARE USED TO DETERMINE THE CONCLUSION. IT'S ALL SPELLED OUT FOR THE ILLITERATE TO UNDERSTAND. IT SHOWS WHY CREATIONISTS THINK HOVIND IS WAY OFF. NO PICTURES, SORRY.
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Chuck77 writes: READ THE LINKS I POSTED FOR BUTTERFLYTYRANT AND YOU'LL ACTUALLY SEE WHAT METHODS ARE USED TO DETERMINE THE CONCLUSION. IT'S ALL SPELLED OUT FOR THE ILLITERATE TO UNDERSTAND. IT SHOWS WHY CREATIONISTS THINK HOVIND IS WAY OFF. NO PICTURES, SORRY. Ow, my ears! Here are your two links, which were unaccompanied by any claims or discussion, just a suggestion that they were "good links to check out":
And here is the relevant rule from the Forum Guidelines:
So once you did make a claim about those links it would have been helpful to describe some of what was in them. I did take a quick look at your links and the they do appear to provide good illustrations of one creationist organization chiding other creationist organizations for dismissing and ignoring valid scientific evidence while themselves dismissing and ignoring other valid scientific evidence. Once one chooses to give greater credence to revelation than to real-world evidence then decisions about which real-word evidence to accept becomes based upon other factors like politics, personal preference, etc. One important factor is that people care what other people think and don't like to look ridiculous. The primary difference between Hovind and CMI is their tolerance for looking foolish to the scientific world. --Percy
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Regarding the Gish Gallop, at least Gish was one opponent doing the galloping. The real challenge comes when a creationist gets a whole pack galloping at him and the debate mods egging them on.
Unlike Hovind, I'm not a YEC. However, IMO, were it not for his creationist ideology Hovind would have been out on parole by now. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3744 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Buzsaw writes:
Unlike Hovind, I'm not a YEC either. However, IMO, his incarceration is completely unaffected by his beliefs.
Unlike Hovind, I'm not a YEC. However, IMO, were it not for his creationist ideology Hovind would have been out on parole by now.
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
Hi Panda,
I don't think Buzz knows that Kent has other cases pending, not sure what though. I was wondering why they had him in administrative segregation and now believe I know why now. I think it is common practice to do that to prisoners with cases pending, I could be wrong. It may also explain why he hasn't got out yet, not the fact he is a creationist, prison is full of all different flavors of religion, not many atheist though.
quote: I thought this blog of his is rather amusing, he whines alot about how bad it is. IMO he needs to be in one of those tent camp jails like they have in Arizona or Texas maybe, out in the heat and cold and all the wonderful things nature provides us.
quote: "No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
The real challenge comes when a creationist gets a whole pack galloping at him and the debate mods egging them on.
You don't know what a Gish Gallop is, do you?
However, IMO, were it not for his creationist ideology Hovind would have been out on parole by now. Ahh, good ole' xtian persecution. You christians have it sooooo bad. "Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
You don't know what a Gish Gallop is, do you? I do, but if you don't get the connection in my message, perhaps you had better look up it's meaning for yourself. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 832 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
Buz, numerous people asking you for evidence is not an example of a Gish Gallop. Evolutionists are not, and never have been, perpetrators of any form of Gish Galloping.
"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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Percy Member Posts: 22508 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
I believe the "case pending in the courts" is the motion Hovind filed last year alleging errors by both the prosecution and defense.
I've read enough of Kent Hovind's prison correspondence to be amazed that there is never a break in the facade, and I've come to think that it is no facade. Hard to believe, but even inside he apparently believes everything he says ranging from Noah's flood to vaccinations to being a citizen of the world and not the US to income taxes. I don't think we'll ever see a contrite or remorseful Hovind, certainly we haven't as yet. This might be because, as I understand it, there is no parole system for federal prisons, the entire sentence must be served. Thus Hovind has no motivation to set the stage for going before a parole board to say things like that he understands his errors, he'll pay taxes, and if released will work to make restitution to the federal government. Hovind will be 62 when released and must then serve 3 years of parole. I'm sure he'll be spouting the same nonsense about evolution and vaccinations and all the rest, but I bet pays his federal income taxes. --Percy
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Hopefully, once he gets out, all those employees that he screwed out of their Social Security retirement benefits will seek restitution.
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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fearandloathing Member (Idle past 4176 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
I couldn't find any more pending charges so he must have been speaking of his motion filed last year.
The blog is first time I have read any of his correspondence, he is a piece of work. The wiki page on him was interesting also being that I wasn't that familiar with his case. Some of the arguments he use in court were pretty far out. I don't know if you could plead insanity in a tax evasion case but if you could then his lawyer probably could've made a strong case based on the wacko claims of his client. North Carolina done away with parole around 1990 or so, I wasn't aware the Feds didn't have one either. I bet he wishes he had paid his taxes now, though he would never say so I'm guessing. He would've still been wealthy... and free. "No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten." Hunter S. Thompson Ad astra per aspera Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
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Panda Member (Idle past 3744 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
fearandloathing writes:
I was more trying to balance Buz's unevidenced opinion with another unevidenced opinion. (I think I need one more unevidenced opinion to win.)
I don't think Buzz knows that Kent has other cases pending, not sure what though. I was wondering why they had him in administrative segregation and now believe I know why now. I think it is common practice to do that to prisoners with cases pending, I could be wrong. fearandloathing writes:
I bet he used to complain about prisons being like holiday camps... I thought this blog of his is rather amusing, he whines alot about how bad it is. Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member (Idle past 114 days) Posts: 3571 Joined: |
When there is a disagreement between (or among) creationists, how do they resolve that difference? As usual C, you dont understand the difference between opinions and simple logical propositions. Opinions and differences matter little where logic validates a proposition. Opinions and differences cant undo what is logically demonstratable and possible. This is why it is so very easy to debate you fellas in public or in writing. Its an open and shut case given the fact that you have no more information concerning the origin of reality than do I or anybody else There is nothing to be resolved amoung Christians, since reality has done that for us Pointing out that something MAY HAVE evolved, has little or nothing do do with the fact that it may have been created to do that in the first place.
Given that, how can you tell that Hovind is "more of a crackpot than most?" What standard can you use? It would seem to me, an outsider, that you have no empirical means nor agreed-upon methods to determine who is right and who is wrong. Sure you do, its called, reality, logic and simple common sense. But then you and these other fellas refuse to debate it publically or allow it logically in science classrooms because your afraid of religion and the affects of it to begin with. Thats the real point isnt it, you dont really have logical proposition ot stand on, so you blindside people with prejudice, imaginary inconsistencies, faulty reasoning and sloppy debating tactics At bare minimum you refuse to deal with it as a simple logical proposition, because it makes your secular fundamentalist position fade as a vapor into realtive non-exsistence And we cant have that can we, you have to have a platform somewhere dont you. So what you do is keep alive these supposed and imaginary differences between the two positions, dont you, when in fact the two positions have little or nothing to do with eachother
Perhaps this is another problem in debating creationists--they haven't worked out a uniform set of beliefs among themselves, and apparently have no method for doing so.
Your a liar (intellectually dishonest) and a coward and you know it, if you ever to choose to be intellectually honest Yeah thats going to happen. It doesnt make the Bible or anyother inspiration claimed source a liar due to the fact that the two positions are not in oposition to eachother to begin with Secondly, If indeed inspiration and omnipotence are involved, there could be numerous reasons as to why our understanding is limited At any rate one does not cancel the other out, as you fellas try and make it appear. But it helps to keep websites, books and misinformation alive, eh Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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Coyote Member (Idle past 2137 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
If there is such a level of agreement, why are there some 40+ thousand different Christian denominations? (And some 4,300 world religions?)
And why is there no way to determine which belief is correct? Tell you what, you guys fight it out among yourselves and when you get down to a single religion, then science can take on the winner. That's fair, eh? Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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