REMBD and Neurodegenerative Disorders

I am a lucid dreamer, a sleep talker, and I suffer from Rapid Eye Movement behavior disorder. Sometimes I wake up while in the middle of a conversation, other times I finish a conversation, awake, and remember distinctly having had the conversation, and can recall many portions of it. Sometimes I act out what occurs in my dream. For instance, I may "strike" at something while dreaming only to wake up from my arm swinging into thin air, or wake from having my arm's movement hindered by my comforter or blanket.Strange, I know. I did a little research, and found that what I suffer from matches with what is called REMBD. Our bodies, during REM sleep, usually enter a state of atonia, or paralysis. Our brains are still active, as well as our ability to breathe, but much of our body is inactive. This is to prevent, I believe, our bodies from acting out during dreaming, to prevent injury. Digging a little deeper, I discovered that recent research studies are suggesting a possible correlation between REMBD and neurodegenerative disorders, such as Parkinson's Disease, dementia without parkonsinism, and multiple system atrophy. (Yes, correlation does not necessarily mean causation...) Source

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We describe demographic, clinical, laboratory and aetiological findings in 93 consecutive patients with rapid eye movement (REM) sleep behaviour disorder (RBD), which consists of excessive motor activity during dreaming in association with loss of skeletal muscle atonia of REM sleep...There is a strong relationship to neurodegenerative disease, especially Parkinson's disease, multiple system atrophy and dementia, and neurologists should explore the possibility of RBD in patients with these conditions. RBD symptoms may be the first manifestations of these disorders and careful follow-up is needed.

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A second source that would support such a correlation is found Here

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July 29, 2010 Idiopathic rapid eye movement sleep behavior disorder (RBD) may be the initial manifestation of the synucleinopathies Parkinson's disease (PD), dementia with Lewy bodies (DLB), and multiple system atrophy (MSA), occurring some 50 years before the neurodegenerative syndrome clinically manifests, a new study suggests.

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Yet this second source was not too convincing, for of the 550 patients that had RBD, only 27 (4.9%) met the criterion of REMBD that

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...predat[ed] by more than 15 years the onset of PD, PD dementia (PDD), DLB, or MSA.

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I am likely misunderstanding this second study, as well as the first study, yet this is why I bring this issue to EVC. I am fascinated, and only a little frightened, by the fact that I may be showing symptoms of neurodegenerative disorders decades prior to what are commonly established symptoms of such diseases. I am 28 years old.If anyone has any greater understanding of this subject, I kindly ask that they help me gain a firmer grasp of it, for I am fascinated with neurology; not to mention there are countless people on other message forums that write of horrifying experiences with REMBD, and reading their messages you cannot help but feel gripped by their fear.Thanks in advance for your time.Mods, please place this wherever you feel is best.(P.S. The soonest I can reply to messages will be limited to between 9pm-10pm for the next three days, for I'll be at work. Please do not take a delayed response from me as ignoring anyone.)Edited by BMG, : No reason given.Edited by BMG, : Grammar

Bingo. I do not have health insurance. From the little I understand, prior to receiving any sort of medical attention from a sleep specialist, I would require a polysomnography.These are not inexpensive. So, I figured I would do my own research.
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National Minimum Price $1,150 (Lebanon, PA)
National Average Price $2,625
National Maximum Price $5,800 (Durant, OK)

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Haha. That's what I am afraid of when it comes to seeing a specialist. I do not want pills, or any treatment for REMBD. I understand, I believe, when I am more likely to suffer from it, when it's more likely I will act out in my sleep.I am, more or less, strictly trying to better understand what is going on in the brain of people who suffer from this disorder, and if there is truly a strong correlation between REMBD and neurodegenerative disorders. Also, if other members of EVC suffer from this, it would be interesting to hear their stories, or the stories of people they know who suffer from REMBD; it is a very personal matter, and I understand if they are not willing to share such personal experiences about themselves or someone they know.Ok, off to work.Edited by BMG, : Grammar.

Hey, CS. I am not a doctor or sleep specialist, obviously, but what you are describing, at least according to WebMD, sounds similar to chronic insomnia.

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People with insomnia have trouble falling asleep or staying asleep. They may wake up during the night or wake up too early the next morning...A chronic sleep problem is ongoing. This is called chronic insomnia. It is often a symptom of another health problem, such as depression or chronic pain.

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Sometimes, more rare than common, I have a similar problem of not being able to fall asleep; it is usually due to excessive stress, or a disruption in my exercise routine. There can be a number of causes in your case; one line of inquiry may begin by researching your family history; do others in your family suffer from sleep disorders(if too personal, please do not answer this)? Or perhaps analyze your lifestyle habits: sleeping patterns, diet, exercise, etc? When I "realize" that I am in a dream, I am no longer in a "deep" sleep. I "slip" from a certain state of consciousness(SOC), that deep sleep, and am almost in between two SOC's, awake and deep sleep: I'm in limbo. I do not like being here, for my fear that I will wake leads to me waking. Any time. I hope by sharing this at EVC we can somehow come to a better understanding of this issue together: as a forum. I originally held this belief, but do not think I can keep it. If I am in a deep sleep, then I am likely not aware of sleeping, for as my awareness of being asleep grows, the depth of my sleep lessens. If I am not aware of sleeping, then I am likely not aware of talking or moving about. I am not very certain about this belief, either, though. Thank you for the suggestions, but the one sleep medication that seems to have the greatest efficacy for me is marijuana. Yet I am weaning myself from this, as well. I am trying to reduce my dependence on any medication for sleep. Not a problem, CS. Thanks for replying.

I found a website that may give us information about your RLS here:The Restless Leg Syndrome FoundationThe link I gave is under the "latest RLS research". I would like to look through this, but I must get ready for work. Agreed. As we agree that sleep disorders are complex, and multifaceted, I found this link from the National Sleep Foundation, which, among other things, stresses the importance and interrelatedness of diet, exercise and sleep.

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By now you probably realize that health is complex — if one part of the body system suffers, you’re likely to see consequences in other areas of your life. Though diet and exercise are critical components of healthy lifestyles, it’s also important to remember that sleep is inherently linked with how we eat (and how much), how we exercise (and whether or not we lose weight), and how we function on a daily basis. Getting the proper amount of sleep each night is necessary to face the world with your best foot forward. Sleep will help you on the road to good fitness, good eating and good health.

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Just scanning it briefly, it does mention obesity; I am not making any assumptions , but perhaps that link can serve as a springboard for further research. Again, time is limited, so I cannot look through it thoroughly. A very real possibility, yes. I am not sure. I have not read too much on this either. I want to research this now, but have very limited time. My next day off will be Monday. Yet, I thought I recall reading from a source that REMBD is not necessarily limited to REM sleep. A bit of a misnomer. I'll have to double check this last bit, though. I enjoy it too, but my enjoyment is waning. I have been smoking since I was 14...I'm now 28. I'm getting a little burned out. Thanks, CS. You too.

Hey, Jon. I'm sorry to hear that. I found another source that speaks of night terrors, REMBD, and the like here: The American Academy of Family Physicians.According to this source, Night terrors are most prevalent in children, and rarely occur in adults. Symptoms include "blood-curdling screams, autonomic discharge, and limited recall." The sleep stage it most often occurs in is "deep sleep, early in sleep period (i.e. 1am-3am), stages 3 and 4 arousals on polysomnogram." In adults, some associated factors are psychiatric and neurological disorders (Parkinson's seems to fit in this category).Night terrors are horrific. I can recall having one, but only one. If this person you speak of has them regularly...(Also, although nightmares are different from night terrors, I found that nightmares can be induced from several types of medications, medications "that affect the neurotransmitter levels of the central nervous system, such as antidepressants, narcotics," and even "antiparkinsonian agents". Italics mine. Moreover, I'll have to go back and see CS's remedies for helping him sleep; perhaps some of them may alter the CNS neurotransmitter levels...ABE: Continuing on this tangent, benzodiazepines are included as altering CNS NT levels. Just look at this list of all that fall under the benzo category, Benzodiazepine ListThis source cites as a remedy for REMBD, Clonazepam (Klonopin). However, Clonazepam is a benzodiazepine. This seems troubling.This source suggests, as others have as well, a link between REMBD and neurodegenerative disorders, such as "Parkinson's, dementia, and narcolepsy." It also reports that CT and MRI's of patients with REMBD may reveal "diffuse hemispheric lesions, bilateral thalamic abnormalities or brain stem lesions."Thanks for sharing, Jon. I wish the best for this person. Edited by BMG, : Additions.Edited by BMG, : Benzodiazepine, CNS NT altering drugs.