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Author Topic:   REMBD and Neurodegenerative Disorders
BMG
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 1 of 22 (618207)
06-02-2011 1:30 AM


An Inquiry
I am a lucid dreamer, a sleep talker, and I suffer from Rapid Eye Movement behavior disorder. Sometimes I wake up while in the middle of a conversation, other times I finish a conversation, awake, and remember distinctly having had the conversation, and can recall many portions of it. Sometimes I act out what occurs in my dream. For instance, I may "strike" at something while dreaming only to wake up from my arm swinging into thin air, or wake from having my arm's movement hindered by my comforter or blanket.
Strange, I know. I did a little research, and found that what I suffer from matches with what is called REMBD. Our bodies, during REM sleep, usually enter a state of atonia, or paralysis. Our brains are still active, as well as our ability to breathe, but much of our body is inactive. This is to prevent, I believe, our bodies from acting out during dreaming, to prevent injury. Digging a little deeper, I discovered that recent research studies are suggesting a possible correlation between REMBD and neurodegenerative disorders, such as Parkinson's Disease, dementia without parkonsinism, and multiple system atrophy. (Yes, correlation does not necessarily mean causation...)
Source
quote:
We describe demographic, clinical, laboratory and aetiological findings in 93 consecutive patients with rapid eye movement (REM) sleep behaviour disorder (RBD), which consists of excessive motor activity during dreaming in association with loss of skeletal muscle atonia of REM sleep...There is a strong relationship to neurodegenerative disease, especially Parkinson's disease, multiple system atrophy and dementia, and neurologists should explore the possibility of RBD in patients with these conditions. RBD symptoms may be the first manifestations of these disorders and careful follow-up is needed.
A second source that would support such a correlation is found Here
quote:
July 29, 2010 Idiopathic rapid eye movement sleep behavior disorder (RBD) may be the initial manifestation of the synucleinopathies Parkinson's disease (PD), dementia with Lewy bodies (DLB), and multiple system atrophy (MSA), occurring some 50 years before the neurodegenerative syndrome clinically manifests, a new study suggests.
Yet this second source was not too convincing, for of the 550 patients that had RBD, only 27 (4.9%) met the criterion of REMBD that
quote:
...predat[ed] by more than 15 years the onset of PD, PD dementia (PDD), DLB, or MSA.
I am likely misunderstanding this second study, as well as the first study, yet this is why I bring this issue to EVC. I am fascinated, and only a little frightened, by the fact that I may be showing symptoms of neurodegenerative disorders decades prior to what are commonly established symptoms of such diseases. I am 28 years old.
If anyone has any greater understanding of this subject, I kindly ask that they help me gain a firmer grasp of it, for I am fascinated with neurology; not to mention there are countless people on other message forums that write of horrifying experiences with REMBD, and reading their messages you cannot help but feel gripped by their fear.
Thanks in advance for your time.
Mods, please place this wherever you feel is best.
(P.S. The soonest I can reply to messages will be limited to between 9pm-10pm for the next three days, for I'll be at work. Please do not take a delayed response from me as ignoring anyone.)
Edited by BMG, : No reason given.
Edited by BMG, : Grammar

Replies to this message:
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 Message 20 by Jon, posted 06-03-2011 10:31 AM BMG has replied

  
AdminPD
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Message 2 of 22 (618209)
06-02-2011 6:15 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the REMBD and Neurodegenerative Disorders thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 3 of 22 (618212)
06-02-2011 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by BMG
06-02-2011 1:30 AM


Re: An Inquiry
This is not meant to be a flippant reply, but shouldn't you go to your local doctor and ask to speak to a specialist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by BMG, posted 06-02-2011 1:30 AM BMG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 8:40 AM Panda has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 22 (618216)
06-02-2011 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Panda
06-02-2011 6:35 AM


He
Panda writes:
This is not meant to be a flippant reply, but shouldn't you go to your local doctor and ask to speak to a specialist?
It's seems BMG is in the US. In the US most of us simply can't go to our local doctor and ask to speak to a specialist.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 6:35 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 9:36 AM jar has not replied
 Message 6 by BMG, posted 06-02-2011 10:13 AM jar has not replied
 Message 10 by frako, posted 06-02-2011 12:18 PM jar has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 5 of 22 (618217)
06-02-2011 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-02-2011 8:40 AM


Re: He
jar writes:
Panda writes:
This is not meant to be a flippant reply, but shouldn't you go to your local doctor and ask to speak to a specialist?
It's seems BMG is in the US. In the US most of us simply can't go to our local doctor and ask to speak to a specialist.
Ah...I see.
I'm in the UK and the NHS will pay for us to see a specialist if a local doctor agrees that a specialist is useful. (Which differs slightly to Sarah Palin's alleged "death panels".)
Well, I hope someone here can provide some useful insight.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 8:40 AM jar has not replied

  
BMG
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 6 of 22 (618220)
06-02-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-02-2011 8:40 AM


Re: He
It's seems BMG is in the US. In the US most of us simply can't go to our local doctor and ask to speak to a specialist.
Bingo. I do not have health insurance. From the little I understand, prior to receiving any sort of medical attention from a sleep specialist, I would require a polysomnography.
These are not inexpensive. So, I figured I would do my own research.
Source
quote:
National Minimum Price $1,150 (Lebanon, PA)
National Average Price $2,625
National Maximum Price $5,800 (Durant, OK)

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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-02-2011 10:26 AM BMG has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 22 (618225)
06-02-2011 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by BMG
06-02-2011 10:13 AM


"You're probably gonna be okay, but lets run a bunch of expensive tests to make sure. Oh, and you should buy all these pills were selling too."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by BMG, posted 06-02-2011 10:13 AM BMG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by BMG, posted 06-02-2011 11:16 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
BMG
Member (Idle past 208 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 8 of 22 (618229)
06-02-2011 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by New Cat's Eye
06-02-2011 10:26 AM


Just Research
"You're probably gonna be okay, but lets run a bunch of expensive tests to make sure. Oh, and you should buy all these pills were selling too."
Haha. That's what I am afraid of when it comes to seeing a specialist. I do not want pills, or any treatment for REMBD. I understand, I believe, when I am more likely to suffer from it, when it's more likely I will act out in my sleep.
I am, more or less, strictly trying to better understand what is going on in the brain of people who suffer from this disorder, and if there is truly a strong correlation between REMBD and neurodegenerative disorders. Also, if other members of EVC suffer from this, it would be interesting to hear their stories, or the stories of people they know who suffer from REMBD; it is a very personal matter, and I understand if they are not willing to share such personal experiences about themselves or someone they know.
Ok, off to work.
Edited by BMG, : Grammar.

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 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-02-2011 10:26 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-02-2011 12:01 PM BMG has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 22 (618237)
06-02-2011 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by BMG
06-02-2011 11:16 AM


Re: Just Research
Also, if other members of EVC suffer from this, it would be interesting to hear their stories, or the stories of people they know who suffer from REMBD
My girlfriend has been getting pissed because I keep waking her up a 5 am kicking my legs around. She's mad that I won't go to the doctor for RLS. I told her that I know it ain't RLS but I'm not sure what it is.
I've been kinda trying to figure out whats going on...
I have a hard time with the whole loosing consciousness part of sleeping, like I can lay there for a while all ready to be sleeping and motionless with eyes closed and just not loose consciousness. Plus, I'm awoken fairly easily depending on the noise and if its strange or not (I remember my uncle commenting about it when I was a kid over there for a sleep-over and he woke me up with the sound from his socks rubbing on the carpet as he walked by the couch I was sleeping on, I remember it being a new noise and had to wake up and turn to look what it was even though the decible level had to be minimal, he's all: "Man, you're a light sleeper!")
I've noticed that sometimes when I'm falling asleep I'll start dreaming before my body becomes paralyzed and then I'll swing my arm out in bed to stop something in the dream. Or I've been startled awake by an actual real sensation of falling when I was dreaming that I fell (you know when its real when you're heart starts racing). I don't ever talk or get out of bed though. I tried unsuccessfully to induce lucid dreaming (making a point to identify sleeping cues.. actually, if you've never heard of this its kinda neat: Pick a common activity as your cue... say: getting into the car. Everytime you get into the car, make a point to question whether your dreaming or not, really question it for real and try to determine that you are or are not in fact dreaming. You'll get into a habit and then if you get into a car in your dream, you'll question whether you're dreaming and can figure out that you are. Then you get to have all the fun you want to. Problem for me was that everytime I realized that I was dreaming, I would wake up )
Okay, where was I...
Sometimes in the morning I kinda wake up and have noticed that I just was twiching my leg or moving and flopping a bit and I do think its a reaction to a dream. ( I've never heard of the REM-BD before, but I think I might be on to something now. So thanks for sharing! )
Anyways.... Also one morning I was already slightly awake around 5 am and then I noticed that the birds started chirping outside. I think that when I'm sleeping, the birds chirping at 5 am wakes me up just enough to loose the paralysis enough that when I'm reacting to dreams my legs actualyl start moving in the bed.
Have you noticed any correlation between how heavily your sleeping and how much moving around or talking your doing? I feel like I only move either at the start or the end of the sleep but not during the middle.
You said you don't want pills, but both diphenhydramine (benadryl) and melatonin have worked at making me sleep more heavily... heh "I took NyQuil once... woke up and had a beard" was that Mitch Hedburg?
I've heard the melatonin gives you nightmares though, and benadryl can dry you out a bit. I don't take anything everynight, but I think those do cut back on the "RLS". Maybe you could try something like that and see if it makes you react less. Equate brand Diphenhydramine is way cheaper than the Benadryl brand by the way.
(sorry for the random thoughts thrown together, I've been typing this while doing other things and heavily editing and just slapping it together)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by BMG, posted 06-02-2011 11:16 AM BMG has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by BMG, posted 06-03-2011 2:24 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 10 of 22 (618243)
06-02-2011 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
06-02-2011 8:40 AM


Re: He
It's seems BMG is in the US. In the US most of us simply can't go to our local doctor and ask to speak to a specialist.
Umm why not? this sounds silly to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 8:40 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 22 (618245)
06-02-2011 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by frako
06-02-2011 12:18 PM


Re: He
frako writes:
It's seems BMG is in the US. In the US most of us simply can't go to our local doctor and ask to speak to a specialist.
Umm why not? this sounds silly to me.
Most American have no health care and so need to pay for any out of pocket.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 10 by frako, posted 06-02-2011 12:18 PM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by hooah212002, posted 06-02-2011 12:55 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 12 of 22 (618246)
06-02-2011 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by jar
06-02-2011 12:37 PM


Re: He
Even if they do, a specialist of the type the OP needs most likely would not be covered. If it were covered, only a small portion would be covered and most likely the full extent of the services he needs would not be covered. Specialists in the US usually need to be paid up front if there is no insurance and if the service is covered, any difference that isn't covered needs to be paid before services are rendered.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 13 of 22 (618248)
06-02-2011 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by hooah212002
06-02-2011 12:55 PM


Re: He
damn im glad i dont live in America.
Lol minimum and obligatet insurance costs about 6 EUR, and free for people in school up to the age of 26 (still classifiable as students). the minimum insurance coveres about everything and some things only up to 90% and you haveto use generic drugs (cheep knockoffs lol ) if they are available on minimum insurance.
3 ways this would play out in my country
1. You go to your local doctor she sends you to a specialist to conduct tests.
2. You go to your local doctor and she dismisis the symptoms you demenad a second opinion you go to a specialists and he conducts further tests
3. You skip the local doctor and get an appointment at the specialist directly might increase your waiting line a bit.
All free or only costs 10% of the actual costs tough in rare cases if you have better insurance then the obligatory minimum it costs nothing, if you are a student its free.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by hooah212002, posted 06-02-2011 12:55 PM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by hooah212002, posted 06-02-2011 4:32 PM frako has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 14 of 22 (618303)
06-02-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by frako
06-02-2011 1:05 PM


Re: He
I'm not sure how other states are, but WI takes care of poor people, to be honest. I've been unemployed since August last year and have been sucking the gub'ment teat, so to speak. BadgerCare has taken very good care of me, save for the few prescriptions they haven't covered, namely heartburn medication.
Having said that, it would seem that only the desperately poor and the wealthy have access to decent care. I just recently had to take my old lady to the ER and the number of people in there who seemed to just have the sniffles or flu was astounding. No bullet wounds, no knives protruding from their forehead, no arms bent every which way: just some people who *appeared to be feeling a touch under the weather.
*I fully understand these individuals could have more serious issues, I'm just saying how it looked.

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by frako, posted 06-02-2011 1:05 PM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by frako, posted 06-02-2011 7:08 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-03-2011 10:09 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 15 of 22 (618333)
06-02-2011 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by hooah212002
06-02-2011 4:32 PM


Re: He
Well the last time i was in a hospital i had a broken ankle, was totaly surprised by the diligance and service all i always heard was people complaining about lines (i tend to stay away from doctors if possible).
When i came in i was limping came to the chek in girl proceeded to hand out my insurance card in that moment a nurse came behind me with a bead tld me to lie on it gave her the card, she wheeled me to the diagnostic 5 minutes wait time got in told me to get an x ray got wheeled to the x ray place waited for 10 minutes got my x ray, waited anoter 10 minutes then they wheeled me back to the first doctor with the x ray in hand waited for 5 minutes got in the doctor said i can have a cask if i want but that it should heal naturally because it was only cracked the cask could do more harm then good. I hate cask so i dint get one had one before took it of on my own after 7 days.
Had nothing to complain about i could have been lucky and there was no line.
The latest experience i had with hospitals was when a friend an older guy who sometimes works for me and sleeps in my garage although he has a good house lol, had internal bleeding in his stomach caused by some bacteria, by chance i went into the garage and i found him half dead called 112(911), the ambulance arrived in half the time it took to answer all the stupid questions the dispatchers had (got routed to 3), he then died 2ice on the way to the hospital they revived him of course loll, stayed for 20 days had all kinds of examinations got poked in all holes got 2 kinds of pills for 6 months and he only had minimum insurance the bill he later had to pay was 300 EUR the ride to the hospital (a limo would have been cheaper).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by hooah212002, posted 06-02-2011 4:32 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
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