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Member (Idle past 96 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The UK Election!!!! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Christ in heaven! Why is it that the constant barrage of media we have thrown at us these days can't be used to convey more information, instead of just obsessing over irrelevancies ad nauseum. Here's what that idiot Nick Robinson has to say:
quote: He expresses frustration in private? He says the things he can't say in front of the media because they and the conservatives would blether on about them for weeks when he thingks the media can't here? Wow - thank you for that insight! How has this man remained political editor for so long?
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Again, let's try to not confuse the severity of an injustice with the 'grounds for complaint' for that injustice. The majority (or at least a significant percentage) of Germans at the time saw the expulsion of Jews as fair, believing Nazi propaganda that the Jews were responsible for the many ills that had befallen Germany since world war one. It was an act sanctioned by the elected government with the support, or at least tolerance, of most people. Small aside, but the Nazis were not really the elected government. They seized power in a coup.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
TheyWorkForYou.com (which, together with Public Whip, is the best way to keep an eye on what your MPs are up to) has sent a questionnaire to every candidate for Parliament, and you can find out about all of yours just by putting in the post code. Bear in mind, that most probably didn't bother to reply. Of the six candidates in my constituency, only UKIP and the Greens bothered to fill it in.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
You seriously think that under the present system we could eject Newcastle upon Tyne (for example - but pick any area you like) from the tax, spend and voting setup because they are too much of a tax burden on the rest of the country? How could that even possibly happen? You have still failed to explain how your majority vote will not result in this sort of seperation between the poorest and the rest. You've failed to provide a reason why it should.(.....) No. The majority of the population cannot just decide to stop supporting the poorest regions under the current system. We cannot just decide to cease public spending in an entire region because it costs us too much. How can this happen under the current system? It can happen by an Act of Parliament. If the Tories won a majority, and they decided that since no-one votes for them in the North-East the government wasn't going to spend any more money there, nothing could prevent them from ceasing public spending there (except the House of Lords, which could be overturned if the government was committed). Of course, this wouldn't happen, for the simple reason of public outrage.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
I don't see how. Not without changing practically every single law and process that dictates how public money is spent and distributed in the UK. Spent and distributed to fund numerous dispirate national agencies and bodies. Local government, the NHS, pensions, welfare benefits, child support, the police, education, DVLA (Driving and Vehicle Licensing Agency) , highways authority, post offices, nationalised banks etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. To just pass a a law that says "We won't spend any money in the North" would not just cause public outcry it would be a political and legal Gordian knot to actually implement. And exactly the same problems of implementation would arise in Legend's dream republic, so I don't see any difference here.
Except that in Legend's scenario the majority holds sway no matter what and if the majority decide that a particular region is just too costly for the rest to subsidise they can just eject it. Eject it not just from receiving public money. But eject it from being part of the political system at all. So could Parliament. What's your point?
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Do you really think the proposal "We are going to eject Wales (or wherever) from the UK political tax, spend and voting system on the basis that it costs the majority of the country too much to subsidise" could be implemented by a commons majority? How long would it take? What constitutional hoops would have to be passed? Is it even possible in practise? Under our current system, Parliament is sovereign. It can do absolutely anything it wants. There are no checks on its power whatsoever. To control a majority in Parliament, and thus have absolute power, you need the support of less than 50%+1 of voters. Explain what would prevent them from kicking Wales out of the country if they so chose. Then explain why the same thing would not prevent a direct democracy from doing so.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
At the risk of repeating what's been said by Legend, Parliament can overturn constitutional checks and balances as and when it pleases as well, if they consider it necessary. And every successive Misuse of Drugs Act, Terrorism Act, and Criminal Justice Act is an exercise in knee-jerk, ill considered, unplanned popularist reactive measures. The problems you're identifying are not ones with direct democracy - they're problems with an easily changeable constitution, which you yourself recognise. Legend's proposal makes the constitution more difficult to change than now.
And, as an optimist, I predict that Labour will get more seats the Tories, or only slightly less, anyway. As a pessimist, I predict that the Tories will install a minority administration, and the opposition parties will be too scared of giving them a majority in a repeat election to oppose it. The only hope is that continuing financial problems ruin the image of the Tory government before it's there too long, and it falls to either a new election or Labour-Lib Dem coalition.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Naturally - this works the other way too. We need to bare in mind that a million people voted UKIP and they got no seats at all. Presumably UKIP would join up in a coalition with Conservatives. People voted Plaid Cymru, SNP, SDLP, Green and Alliance as well, all of whom, together with Labour and the Lib Dems, are closer on policy to each other than any are to the Tories. Collectively, they represent 54.54% of votes cast (unless I hit a wrong button on my calculator), and I'd suspect that those who voted for Sinn Fein and the minor socialist parties would prefer them to a Tory government too. Yes, it's a small majority, but it would be the biggest electoral majority forming a government since the wartime national unity government more than 65 years ago. How stable this government would be is a slightly different matter. Incidentally, it seems voting reform is quite likely. The Tories are promising a referendum on AV, while Labour are promising AV as a given and offering a referendum on a proportional system, according to the Lib Dems. ABE: Incidentally, even though I would like this coalition to be formed, I hate the term 'progressive alliance' too. Call it what it is - a grand anti-Tory coalition. Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Personally I would have liked to have seen Clegg at the home office implemening some of the more liberal policies in that area and repealing some of Labours recent more authoritarian measures. ID cards, detention times etc. etc. etc. They've just announced Theresa May as the new Home Secretary. I'm too out of touch with British politics to know what this means, and a quick rummage though Hansard reveals almost nothing about what to expect on civil liberties or how socially liberal she is. Anyone have any more clue?
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
I don't think it's anything at all like what Legend wants, but I've heard before similar proposals for direct democracy, but the actual system of governance wouldn't change so much. There would still be elections to Parliament to form the government, and the early stages of bill formation would remain the same -with everything televised for free (much like it is now). The vote on the final reading (or earlier readings by some proposals) wouldn't be done in Parliament. The bill at all stages of progress would be freely available to read on the internet, and the final version would be there for a while before the vote for any interested party to study. The vote would then be done electronically, with every registered voter having the right to say yea or nay.
This wouldn't actually let people decide what is debated, except through the traditional Parliamentary means, so I doubt Legend would like it. The potentials for fraud in such regular electronic votes seem huge as well. Interesting idea, though.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
How, exactly, is this distinguished from the Downing Street Petitions website that already exists? One more empty gesture, I suspect.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
BTW massive respect for Clegg, he's just moved up miles in my appreciation. It's not just an empty gesture as it will force the issues up into the politician's faces, they will have to deal with them for a change, even if that means rejecting them. Not really. At least Downing Street petitions required responses if they received enough signatures. Remains to be seen if this will be anything other than a political forum for people to argue in.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 1055 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
quote: This one's just an unqualified lie. They elaborate:
The change to AV will cost up to an additional £250 million. Local councils would have to waste money on costly electronic vote counting machines and expensive voter education campaigns Or you could pay £20 to an unemployed IT guy to make you something in Microsoft Office that can calculate the results, and tell people to list their candidates in order of preference. Incidentally for any foreigns interested, the No vote won by a depressingly huge margin. No electoral reform for the foreseeable future.
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