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Author Topic:   Symphony by accident
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 8 of 23 (605676)
02-21-2011 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by slevesque
02-21-2011 2:44 PM


slevesque writes:
If I'm not mistaken the number of mutations fixed by selection is quite small compared to genetic drift.
It seems unlikely to me that there exists a way to count actual fixated mutations and classify them as to whether it was due to selection or drift, so I don't think we could know either way whether what you're claiming is true. Maybe one of the biologists will chime in.
We do know that advantageous alleles will be driven toward fixation more rapidly than neutral alleles, but as fixation approaches the effects of drift become more prominent and can actually interfere with fixation. Apparently, in sexual populations recessive advantageous alleles can actually have a better chance of fixation than dominate advantageous alleles simply because of the effects of drift. See Natural Selection, Genetic Drift, and Gene Flow Do Not Act in Isolation in Natural Populations.
The most important thing to keep in mind is that the effects of adaptation are prominently in evidence throughout nature, and neutral alleles cannot produce adaptation.
--Percy

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 Message 5 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 2:44 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 16 of 23 (605697)
02-21-2011 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by slevesque
02-21-2011 3:22 PM


slevesque writes:
Population genetics gives us a maximum on fixation by selection, since selection involves killing/inhibiting reproduction of individuals. So it can only select for so much in a given generation, all the rest is hope to genetic drift.
The effect of genetic drift is a strong function of population size. For instance, see this paper where they calculate the fixation rate for examples of neutral and advantageous alleles: http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gavrila/583/C5.pdf. It concludes:
In large populations, selection will overwhelm drift once the advantageous allele is at all common.
You next say:
And if genetic drift has such on a strong effect on the fixation of mutations, wouldn't one be justified to question if such an amount of randomness can still account for the evolution of complex structures?
I think you must be operating under the impression that advantageous mutations that do not reach fixation are somehow lost, which is definitely not the case. It also appears possible that you think fixation is some kind of holy grail for alleles, and that alleles that do not attain fixation do not have a significant impact on a population, also definitely not the case.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 3:22 PM slevesque has replied

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 Message 19 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 4:14 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22505
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 20 of 23 (605737)
02-21-2011 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by slevesque
02-21-2011 4:14 PM


slevesque writes:
No, but when discussing evolution, fixation is quite important. After all, we compare the fixed mutations between species to extrapolate common ancestors.
Wherever did you get such a strange idea? Ultimately every allele in a population's genome arose through mutation. Which alleles will you deem mutations and which not, since they're all ultimately mutations. And how would you ever identify which mutations were fixated (which means a gene with only a single allele) without sampling every individual of a population?
In the long run, only the fixed mutations will have a permanent impact. Temporary impacts from mutations that come and go through drift isn't relevant.
Two sentences, two misunderstandings.
First, fixated alleles do not have a permanent impact as they are as vulnerable to mutations as any other allele.
Second, non-fixated alleles do not have temporary impacts. Huge numbers of significant and influential alleles are not fixated.
Like I said before, you seem to be thinking of fixation as some kind of pinnacle of achievement for an allele, and that a gene can have no significant role if it isn't fixated. This is not true.
What is most important for the survival of species is variation. I bet the endangered Florida panther, which is well known for its lack of genetic diversity, has a much higher incidence of fixated alleles than non-endangered species. Fixation is only a good thing if you look at things from the allele's point of view. But it's the survival of the species that is of overwhelming importance, not the survival of alleles, and species survival depends upon variation, not fixation.
A population, or sub-population, evolves through fixation.
Uh, no.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by slevesque, posted 02-21-2011 4:14 PM slevesque has not replied

  
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