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On the evolution of English as a written or spoken language.

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Author Topic:   On the evolution of English as a written or spoken language.
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 15 of 88 (596301)
12-14-2010 9:43 AM 		Reply to: Message 10 by Parasomnium
12-14-2010 9:05 AM

Re: "Ghoti"
Parasomnium writes:
​
Does anyone know how to pronounce "ghoti" in English?
It is not 'fish'.
quote:
"It is not just that these correspondences never occur in the phonetic contexts in which he puts them. The correspondence /ʃ/= only occurs as palatalization in Latinate words and fish is clearly Basic."
Error 404 (Not Found)!!1
I would go for 'Goaty' or 'Gotty'.
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 19 of 88 (596318)
12-14-2010 10:50 AM 		Reply to: Message 18 by Parasomnium
12-14-2010 10:42 AM

Re: "Ghoti"
Parasomnium writes:
​
The Dutch word "van" in this context translates as "from". "Van" is pronounced with an a-sound roughly like that in the British pronunciation of "dance", but a little shorter.
Northern English 'dance' or southern English 'dance'?
(I think it is northern style.)
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 28 of 88 (596342)
12-14-2010 12:47 PM 		Reply to: Message 25 by jar
12-14-2010 11:48 AM

Re: "Ghoti"
jar writes:
​
Unlike many languages, is English a classic example of Evolution, whatever is good enough to just get by, as opposed to Design, languages created to meet a given standard?
I am not sure what the 'natural selection' aspect of your analogy would be.
Bullies at school 'picking on' someone for using 'long' words maybe?
​
I would also suggest the 'artifical selection' is rampant in the evolution of English.
I am sure that 'tmesis' would have faded away if the likes of Steven Fry, et al. didn't keep reminding people of it.
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 31 of 88 (596353)
12-14-2010 1:52 PM 		Reply to: Message 29 by jar
12-14-2010 12:54 PM

Re: "Ghoti"
jar writes:
​
many words and terms simply disappear, do not survive, or get new uses.
Natural selection is a process.
"simply disappear, do not survive, or get new uses" are not processes.
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 Message 36 by ringo, posted 12-14-2010 2:20 PM Panda has replied
  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 37 of 88 (596361)
12-14-2010 2:54 PM 		Reply to: Message 32 by jar
12-14-2010 1:57 PM

Re: On Natural Selection of the English Language
jar writes:
​
Natural selection is why they disappear, get new uses.
Which is not what you originally said:
quote:
Natural Selection is pretty obvious, many words and terms simply disappear, do not survive, or get new uses.
​
jar writes:
​
The Natural Selection in language is the population that uses the language, that selects what survives and does not survive.
Surely the population (as a whole) is the environment.
Individual attitudes would be like natural selection?
Or would that be more like artificial selection?
​
And you have still not described what natural selection would be in your analogy.
I suggested one example earlier - surely there are more.
​
If your original comment was just an asside, then just acknowledge this reply and I'll leave it.
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Panda
Member (Idle past 3742 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010

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Message 38 of 88 (596364)
12-14-2010 2:56 PM 		Reply to: Message 36 by ringo
12-14-2010 2:20 PM

ringo writes:
​
In biological evolution, the least fit individuals are selected out by usage. The fittest words survive because they are selected in by usage.
Yes, but what causes words to be selected in?
(And I did give an example of words being selected out too.)
​
But I think this might have been just an asside by Jar and not something he wanted to discuss.
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