Do Animals Believe In Supernatural Beings?

Do animals exhibit belief in supernatural beings?OriginsNet Publications
http://www.originsnet.org/chimpspiritdatabase.pdfIf they do is this evidence in favour of the actual existence of supernatural beings?Or does it point to the evolutionary origins and causes of human belief in supernatural beings?

Yes. Let’s go for this. Do animals exhibit signs of belief in the supernatural? How could we recognise such beliefs? Is there any evidence to suggest parallels with primitive human beliefs? Are there any obvious similarities between the behaviour of animals and modern humans that could suggest animal religiosity of any description? That sort of line of discussion. OK. Prior to any real investigation of this at all I suspect that higher primates in particular may well exhibit basic signs of things like death rituals or ancestor worship. With regard to other less intelligent animals - I have no idea but I doubt it. And I don’t see how we could really tell. Does a dog bark at the moon because of some supernatural belief? I would be surprised if this was the case but I have no idea how we could ever possibly determine this without being able to communicate or examine directly comparable human behaviour.In short I think the question posed in this thread is an interesting one, and one that I would hazard some guesses at, but not one I have formed a particularly strong position on. If it gets promoted and inspires any reaction in others then I would take it as an opportunity to consider the question in more detail. I think this qualifies as a proper evidence based topic rather than ‘Coffee House’ or ‘Free For Al’ or anything like that. But I leave it to you to decide where best to put it beyond those comments.

On the basis that death rituals and belief in an afterlife of some sort seem to be a near universal feature of human religions I thought I would see what equivalents there might be amongst animals.I found this fascinating link on elephant behaviour (see below). I quote the bit specifically about death rituals as most relevant to this topic but I found the entire link on elephant intelligence and behaviour remarkable. Elephant Intelligence

How can we know when animals might be exhibiting belief in the supernatural? With great difficulty I suspect. We can only really compare with what we know about humans and human behaviour.So how do anthropologists identify whether or not primitive and long dead societies exhibited theistic beliefs? Signs of worship and ritualisation seem to be the key indicators.But I am not claiming to have any knowledge in this area at all. I just thought it was an interesting and relevant question.

Not definitively no. But when anthropologists find signs of worship is it not usually taken that this implies some form of supernatural belief? I am thinking of things like neolithic figurines as representing some sort of fertility goddess.Are there any examples of primitive cultures where we know that worship was not related to supernatural belief?

Can you give some examples?

I'm not sure I understand your method of distinguishing between that which is supernatural and that which is not.For example you seem to be suggesing that something like the following is NOT a supernatural belief because the believers do not know the actual cause of volcanoes. You don't think the above is a supernatural belief? Is that right?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

So belief in gods doesn't in itself constitute belief in supernature as far as you are concerned?

Then regardless of whether I agree with it or not I am not sure how useful your distinction is in this thread. In the unlikely event that we ever discover animals explicitly demonstrating belief in gods of some sort (shrines, idols that sort of thing) I think the answer to the question being asked in this thread would be - Yes.Quibbling over whether their gods were supernatural or not by the terms you have defined doesn't seem that relevant. I think supernatural (broadly) means something that is neither derived from nor subject to natural laws and which is thus materially inexplicable. And gods are (broadly) supernatural conscious beings who are envisaged to have power over some aspect of reality.1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) a supernatural being, who is worshipped as the controller of some part of the universe or some aspect of life in the world or is the personification of some force Related adj divine I am not sure that is too much of a concern in the case of examining whether animals exhibit signs of supernatural belief. I don't see how the plum pudding model of the atom could ever be described as a supernatural claim.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

With regard to animals and their beliefs all we have, in the absence of communication, is comparison of animal behaviour with human behaviour. Where we see animals behaving in ways that are directly comparable to humans exhibiting belief in supernatural beings we can consider the possibility that animals are doing something similar.Subtle distinctions between gods and beings that are metaphysically supernatural by the rather unique definitions you are advocating just don't seem that relevant. Look if we even get to the stage where there is any evidence to suggest that animals might believe in such things then we can quibble over what exactly is meant by "supernatural being". But let's establish whether there is even a case to be made for the possibility before we get bogged down in detailed definitions.Why does every single thread in this place have to end up as an exercise in "define your terms" tedium? One is able to be materially investigated and the other isn't.

Given that you evidently find the use of the term "supernatural" so objectionable without it first being tied down to within an inch of it's existence I suggest that you approach this thread from the perspective of identifying any indications of religious behaviour (in the broadest sense of the phrase) in animals.And before you ask me to define "religious behaviour" here is what I mean by a broad definition of religion: "having or showing belief in and reverence for a deity".For heavens sake how many detailed definitions of what is meant by "supernatural" does EvC need? And in the unlikely event that we find evidence of animals exhibiting belief in a Thor-like-god-of-thunder being are we really going to start squabbling over whether or not this qualifies as supernatural in the abstract metaphysical sense you are advocating as necessary?Given the remarkable nature of such a discovery and it's possible implications - Who cares whether it meets your strict and rather unique definition of "supernatural" or not? No. Let's find some potentially relevant examples and then discuss whether or not they are indicative of supernatural belief in animals.Given the sparsity of such examples and the speculative nature of the whole topic this seems a far more productive way forwards than providing highly detailed definitions only to realise afterwards that this a complete waste of time because there is no evidence for anything even close to that which has been defined.So - What real life examples are there of animals exhibiting behaviour that is comparable to human religious behaviour and which could be indicative of similar beliefs in animals?That is the question.

What indications do you have that your cat thinks you are a supernatural being rather than just a rather gullible two legged source of food?

No dude. She is showing you he ass and saying "If you don't supply me with food I will shit on your pillow".

Well if you want to raise these non-deifying acts of religious behaviour on the part of animals I would be delighted to hear of them in this thread. Because I think the examples of animals exhibiting such behaviour are of far more relevance to this thread than the endless definitions we can apply to such things.Call me radical if you will........So what examples do you have (definitions aside for one moment?)

I have found stuff on elephant death rituals which was abolsutely fascinating. See Message 7.Haven't found anything similar on apes. Do you have any links for that?Chimps exhibit "rain dance" behaviour which scientists have suggested mimics primitive man's attitude to the elements. But from what I have seen this is wildly speculative to say the least.