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Author
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Topic: Castle Doctrine
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: ringo writes: Yep, they are.
Nope, they aren't. Now what?
The facts are on my side. Eighteen years in the same house and nearly fifty years in the same neighbourhood and never a successful break-in. Locks work.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 362 of 453 (575175)
08-19-2010 1:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 360 by ringo
08-19-2010 1:43 AM
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Frankly, I find that number ludicrous, unless you're using a very loose definition of "home invasion". The one I'm using is something like "the act of burglarizing a private and occupied dwelling for the purpose of committing a violent crime (such as robbery, assault, rape or murder) against the occupant(s)." Yeah. Over 8000 of those per year across Canada.
My estimate would be close to none. None? Canada has over 33 million citizens. You think none of them are rapists? Murderers? Robbers? Out to settle a grudge? Looking for a cheap score? Needing quick cash for a drug fix? You're being completely ridiculous.
And as I've said before, I've been doing that quite nicely for decades without a gun. I hope that continues to work out for you, but others choose to be prepared in a different way. I'm not out to convince you to buy a gun, I'm simply trying to help you understand why others do.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 360 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 1:43 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 365 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:01 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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crashfrog writes: ringo writes: I lock my doors. You ever heard of lock-bumping?
 You've been watching too many movies. There's nothing in my house that James Bond would want to steal.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 358 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2010 1:27 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 364 of 453 (575177)
08-19-2010 1:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 363 by ringo
08-19-2010 1:52 AM
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You've been watching too many movies. No, Ringo, I haven't. A bump-key is about $20, opens a lock in seconds. You put it in the keyway and you "bump" it, and it pops the tumbler pins. It's not James Bond shit, it's something you can make in 30 minutes with a key and a file. If it nets a robber your $200 TV and cell phone, plus whatever cash you have on the nightstand, that's ten minutes of very profitable work for a robber. Honestly your notions about crimes and criminals are just astounding in their naivete. Like CS says, residential door locks (in wooden doors closing on wooden jambs) are more like suggestions, not defenses.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 363 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 1:52 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 366 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:04 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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crashfrog writes: Canada has over 33 million citizens. You think none of them are rapists? Murderers? Robbers? Out to settle a grudge? Looking for a cheap score? Needing quick cash for a drug fix?
Sure. Lots of them - but very few of them do it home-invasion style. To put it bluntly, I simply don't believe your numbers - and I have yet to see you give a proper reference for your claims.
crashfrog writes: I hope that continues to work out for you, but others choose to be prepared in a different way.
Not in Canada they don't.
crashfrog writes: I'm not out to convince you to buy a gun, I'm simply trying to help you understand why others do.
I do understand. If it's as dangerous up here as you claim it is, it's because Canadians are tougher and braver than Americans. 
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 362 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2010 1:48 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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crashfrog writes: Honestly your notions about crimes and criminals are just astounding in their naivete. Like CS says, residential door locks (in wooden doors closing on wooden jambs) are more like suggestions, not defenses.
Like I told CS, the facts are against you. Eighteen years in the same house and nearly fifty years in the same neighbourhood and the locks have worked every single time.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 364 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2010 1:58 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 367 of 453 (575180)
08-19-2010 2:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 365 by ringo
08-19-2010 2:01 AM
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I told you, the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics:
Get Laid Tonight But, you know, you've made it clear you're simply going to reject any fact or statistic that indicates crime is more prevalent than you're prepared to believe. That's fine, we're done.
If it's as dangerous up here as you claim it is, it's because Canadians are tougher and braver than Americans. If you're any indication they're simply very poorly informed about crime issues.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 365 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:01 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 370 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:26 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 368 of 453 (575181)
08-19-2010 2:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 366 by ringo
08-19-2010 2:04 AM
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Eighteen years in the same house and nearly fifty years in the same neighbourhood and the locks have worked every single time. It only takes one.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 366 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:04 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
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Message 369 of 453 (575183)
08-19-2010 2:07 AM
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Reply to: Message 361 by ringo
08-19-2010 1:47 AM
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The facts are on my side. Eighteen years in the same house and nearly fifty years in the same neighbourhood and never a successful break-in. Locks work. Non-sequitor. Its more probable that other factors have attributed to your lack of break ins than the locks. If someone did want to get in, the lock isn't going to stop them. Or does your house have no windows and an iron door with multiple bolt locks? But wait... that wouldn't make sense with your claim that there aren't many break-ins to begin with. Locks are not going to prevent someone from getting in... granted, they might deter them... to your neighbors.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 361 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 1:47 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 372 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:34 AM | | New Cat's Eye has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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crashfrog writes: But, you know, you've made it clear you're simply going to reject any fact or statistic that indicates crime is more prevalent than you're prepared to believe.
No, I'll accept your belated statistics. Your reference does admit, though, that the numbers can vary considerably depending on the definition of "home invasion". The broad definition gives numbers twice as high as the narrow definition. I'm not sure a variation that wide is a good basis for drawing conclusions. I'll also point out that your source mentions that only 8% of those attacked required medical attention. I didn't notice any loss of life at all. Do you think fighting back would improve those numbers?
crashfrog writes: If you're any indication they're simply very poorly informed about crime issues.
It really is about perceptions, though, isn't it? Maybe I'm going through life like Mr. Magoo or maybe you're just exaggerating the danger. The bottom line is that I don't need a gun for self defense and most Canadians agree with me.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 367 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2010 2:04 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 371 of 453 (575187)
08-19-2010 2:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 370 by ringo
08-19-2010 2:26 AM
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Do you think fighting back would improve those numbers? I think keeping the tools to fight back out of the hands of those who might be served by them makes the numbers worse, yes. Whether or not to fight back is a decision only that person can make, in that situation. We can't make that decision for them because we can't be aware of all the relevant factors in advance.
The bottom line is that I don't need a gun for self defense and most Canadians agree with me. Many don't. Many Americans agree with you - only one in five Americans owns a gun. Again, I'm not out to convince you to buy a gun, merely to give you the reasons why a reasonable person might decide to.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 370 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:26 AM | | ringo has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 373 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:44 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Catholic Scientist writes: If someone did want to get in, the lock isn't going to stop them.
If somebody wants to kill me, a gun isn't going to stop them either.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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crashfrog writes: ringo writes: Do you think fighting back would improve those numbers? I think keeping the tools to fight back out of the hands of those who might be served by them makes the numbers worse, yes.
I don't know why you keep harping on "keeping the tools to fight back" out of people's hands. As far as we know, those victims chose not to fight back. If Canadians wanted weapons for self defence, I haven't said that I'd oppose that. If you have any evidence that a significant number of Canadians want a Castle Doctrine, I'd be interested in seeing it.
Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 371 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2010 2:33 AM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 374 of 453 (575192)
08-19-2010 2:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 372 by ringo
08-19-2010 2:34 AM
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If somebody wants to kill me, a gun isn't going to stop them either. If you kill them with it, that's exactly what the gun did.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 372 by ringo, posted 08-19-2010 2:34 AM | | ringo has not replied |
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 95 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: 09-30-2006
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Re: "Misconduct"
CS writes: Using a gun is reasonable force and proportionate response to someone who has broken into your house. Does the law as written require that they broke-in? Or does it just require that they are on your property and that you believe they are going to commit a minor felony? If you can kill people without legal consequence for the latter it is a "shit law" that needs to be rethought or modified in some way. No?
CS writes: Wait, what exactly was your problem with "My Plan"? Your plan is the not the castle doctrine law as you have described it to me, as it appears to be written in Illinois state law or as exampled by Dr. A elsewhere in this thread.
CS writes: You said the "Crux of the issue" was basing it on my belief, but what else I am supposed to base it on in a case of self defense? Shooting someone dead for ringing your doorbell and then gettng off without legal consequence by claiming that you believed they were going to commit a felony on your property is indicative of a poor and dangerous law. Would you not agree?
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